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- Smoking Guns
- Rep: 330
Re: HBO's A Game of Thrones
I enjoyed it. I think in this "fanboy" era, people are so quick to look for something to complain about in their entertainment that they're sucking the joy out of it for themselves. If you get so invested in something, whether it's a movie or book or tv series, that you can't enjoy it anymore because of the grievances you have with the creator's visions, that's on you.
Could some of GoT been better this season? Maybe. I couldn't do better, personally.
Were some questions left unanswered? Yes. Maybe that's by design. Spinoffs, prequels, sequels all might need some mystery to remain.
Not looking to complain, it was shit. Shit is shit. Everything that happened after Jon killing Dany was a slap in the face.
Re: HBO's A Game of Thrones
I'm reminded of Lost. Got good, then the final season I had some bad vibes, started to predict a bad ending & sure enough the finale was a bomb. Irrelevance & loosely tied up answers and some questions largely left unanswered. GoT myb sounds a little better.
Big Bri I think finale's in general are hit or miss. Breaking Bad did it well imho, that was only 5 or 6 years ago. Soprano's was controversial, a bit of a copout imho albeit a slightly creative/artistic one. Seinfeld was largely underwhelming. Wonder Years good, I didnt watch Friends but I recall it being ok. Cheers was touching & emotional but some people were a bit let down from what I remember, I liked it tho & I think got better with age although the show itself got largely forgotten.
Re: HBO's A Game of Thrones
Never found out what Bran was doing during the battle with the NK.
Never found the real back story if the NK.
Lord of Light? Meant nothing.
Jon’s lineage? Nothing
So disgusted
I'm not exactly disgusted, but your post definitely summarizes how I felt about loose ends not being tied up, after I watched the episode.
Re: HBO's A Game of Thrones
How did Cersei's prophecy get fulfilled?
Cersei: Will the king and I have children?
Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.
Valonqar is "little brother" in the old tongue
- Randall Flagg
- Rep: 139
Re: HBO's A Game of Thrones
How did Cersei's prophecy get fulfilled?
Cersei: Will the king and I have children?
Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.Valonqar is "little brother" in the old tongue
That’s from the books. The show didn’t mention the valonqar prophecy in the flashback.
She also kills the girl that was with her in the books to hide the prophecy.
Re: HBO's A Game of Thrones
The show's been a hot mess since I don't know... Season 4.
It was huge dive off a cliff after Season 1.
It's the show runners fault but also George's for investing so much time into R+L=J. Really needed a refresh on the global story arc.
Jon and Dany's fate is probably the only thing I like or can handle. Not well executed but the ideas behind them work.
Still many plot holes and unexplained pieces.
Eh, whatever.
McShane had the right of it. It's only tits and dragons.
Re: HBO's A Game of Thrones
So, Jonah Goldberg sums up my feelings pretty well. The moment they ran out of source material the show has been pretty bad, save some stuff. Most of all, the writers weren't smart enough to write for Tyrion.
Spoilers Ahead.
Look, I share David’s love of Game of Thrones. But I thought the finale was largely a bust, for failings David mostly acknowledges in passing (but does not allow to dampen his ardor). The problems with the finale were largely the problems of this entire season. Characters that had been carefully developed over the years, were turned into almost allegorical plot-advancement devices. Subplots that had been teased for just as long were relegated to the dustbins of “Whatever happened with . . . ” “What was the point of . . . ” and “Aw, just forget it.”
The second most interesting event — how the Unsullied and others reacted to Jon’s betrayal of Dany — was skipped entirely. We just fast-forwarded past what would have seemed like the disappearance of the Mother of Dragons. After all, Jon could have easily just walked out of King’s Landing after telling everyone, “Dany went for a tour of her kingdom with Drogon.” Did Jon just walk up to Grey Worm and say, “I offed her”? He might have, given his tendency to bluntly tell the truth when he shouldn’t. But if he did, why would Grey Worm agree to arresting the assassin rather than kill him on the spot? Never mind all of the fascinating debates that might have transpired since Jon was in fact the rightful heir to the throne and could have justified his actions against the pretender Dany. Obviously the Dothraki and the Unsullied don’t much care about the line of succession, but that would have just made everything more intriguing. Of course, the Dothraki ceased being sentient humans a long time ago. This season they might as well have been photon torpedoes for all the agency they had.
That brings me to the most interesting event — which should have actually been, you know, interesting.
Grey Worm brings Tyrion to the Council of the Lords of Westeros and the moment Tyrion starts talking, Grey Worm says “Shut up, you have no voice here” or words to that effect. So far so good. Tyrion agrees but then keeps talking anyway and Grey Worm, now no more than a plot-advancement device, not only lets him, but lets him devise a scheme that anoints a new king, a new system of government and a new — or rather old — job for Tyrion as Hand of the King (again!). Sam’s pitch for democracy came dismayingly close to breaking the fourth wall. He might as well have yelled, “Shut up woke Twitter gadflies, no democracy for you!” I did like the humiliation of the Tully fop. But everything else was ridiculous. As I’ve written before, the thing I loved most about Game of Thrones was the way it took politics seriously in a realm markedly lacking in idealism. The idea that all of the Lords of Westeros wouldn’t even say, “Give me a week to think about it” before agreeing to an entirely new political order with a creepy, emotionless, mystical cripple as the new monarch is absurd. So was Grey Worm’s instant acquiescence to the scheme, particularly given that five minutes after the meeting he was leaving Westeros anyway. Why couldn’t Jon just wait for the Unsullied ships to disappear before saying, “Screw all that” I’m not going to the Night’s Watch – which frickn’ doesn’t exist anymore and doesn’t need to. I know, I know, he gave his word. But come on.
And then, when Sansa says, “Yeah, no. We’re staying independent” why didn’t any of the other Lords say, “Uh, if she’s not joining neither are we?” I’m not saying they couldn’t be persuaded, but in the world built so carefully over the first few seasons, the idea that they wouldn’t even need persuasion is preposterous. The EU is more against Brexit than the Lords were against the largest chunk of the Seven Kingdom’s breaking away.
Also, as Ross Douthat notes on the special GLOP podcast we recorded this morning, what the Hell is going to happen with Bran? He’s the Three-Eyed-Raven. The last one lived for like a thousand years. Will he rule that long? Is no one interested in asking that question? Will he be more loyal to his Three Eyed Raven agenda or to the country? Will he merge with a tree? What is the Three Eyed Raven agenda? Why is his story so much more compelling than, say, Arya’s or Gendry’s or Sansa’s? He did jack all to fight the Night King. When it was go time he didn’t Warg into a dragon or wolf or even a particularly burly Dothraki. He just said, “I’m going to take a piss in the astral plane. Good luck fighting the dead, losers.” Ross rightly argues that Bran represented the fantasy arc of the series and that arc turned out to be a big nothing. Meanwhile, the real politik arc of the series was ended with an After School Special “The pluralism was in our hearts all along!” — all in the name of setting up some sequels.
The moral take-aways at the end were insane — and weirdly stale, better suited for the tail end of the Iraq War. All of the stuff about how Dany was evil because she had led a life as proponent-of-liberty promotion and regime change could have been interesting, but they just left it all out there. Are we to believe that killing the slavemasters wasn’t worth it because it corrupted her soul? Please. Similarly, this idea — super clever when you’re sixteen — that the person most suited to rule is the one who wants it least is preposterous. If that’s true, put Hot Pie or a wolf on the throne and be done with it.
Finally, what in the Seven Hells was up with the Song of Ice and Fire bit at the end? That is a big ass book written by a Maister (awfully quickly, I might add), that supposedly chronicles the entire story we all just watched.
Tyrion isn’t in it? Ha ha! That’s funny!
But it’s also staggeringly stupid. The war of the Five Kings began because Tyrion’s dagger was used in an attempt to assassinate Bran. Tyrion became the hand of the King, married the woman who would become the Lady of Winterfell (never annulled by the way), killed the subsequent Hand of the King, who was the most powerful man in Westeros and father of the last King who Tyrion was accused of murdering at his own wedding. That seems newsy. (Those events led Sansa to marry the usurper of Winterfell — the first non-Stark to rule the North in thousands of years — and eventually led to Sansa orchestrating the victory in the Battle of the Bastards and Wexit). Tyrion then escaped King’s Landing after his proxy lost a trial-by-combat that killed a prince of Dorn, led to the Mountain being turned into an undead Golem and led Tyrion to become the Hand of the Queen who successfully invaded Westeros, burning King’s Landing in the process and breaking the “Wheel” of power politics and primogeniture. What on earth is in those pages if Tyrion isn’t? Recipes?
It’s like Benioff and Weiss left to go make a Star Wars movie and told the interns to wrap things up for them.
I’m pretty forgiving about many of the complaints that are most prominent out there. It doesn’t bother me that Jon killed Dany (I even predicted it). It doesn’t bother me that Dany went bonkers, that was foreshadowed than critics claim. In short, my problem isn’t with the plot developments, but how they were implemented. It all became almost allegorical in its mad rush to wrap things up. And it’s a shame.
Re: HBO's A Game of Thrones
bigbri wrote:I enjoyed it. I think in this "fanboy" era, people are so quick to look for something to complain about in their entertainment that they're sucking the joy out of it for themselves. If you get so invested in something, whether it's a movie or book or tv series, that you can't enjoy it anymore because of the grievances you have with the creator's visions, that's on you.
Could some of GoT been better this season? Maybe. I couldn't do better, personally.
Were some questions left unanswered? Yes. Maybe that's by design. Spinoffs, prequels, sequels all might need some mystery to remain.
Not looking to complain, it was shit. Shit is shit. Everything that happened after Jon killing Dany was a slap in the face.
The last three seasons have been mediocre fan fiction.
"We name Bran the Boring king!"
Sansa: "But his dick doesn't even work!"
- A Private Eye
- Rep: 77
Re: HBO's A Game of Thrones
Tried really hard to like the last episode but it did feel like a let down overall.
I think the main problem is that the show used to have a very well written plot with a depth to it where cool moments such as battles etc would occur because of the consequences of the characters actions. They were plot driven, organic moments. Somewhere along the line that seemed to flip and the big moments became the whole point of the show and the how and why of getting to each moment didn't really matter as long as they got there. They continued to deliver those moments well (very well to be fair) in terms of spectacle but the emotional connection was lessened.
Danys heel turn for example should have been an emotional gut punch but just got handled all wrong. There were subtle (and some not so subtle) moments throughout the whole show that she had the Targaryen madness in her but it just seemed to go from 0.5 to 11 in the space of one episode.
I'll be interested to see if Bran ends up King in the books because if he doesn't it reeks of them just choosing someone who nobody was picking just for lame surprise value. Again if Bran was always GRRM's intended King then no doubt it'll be done better and far less rushed.
There were bits I did like to be fair. I thought the gathering of the new small counsel was funny and a nice nod to the earlier seasons when those meetings were such a big part of the show. Jon killing Dany was fitting and done well as was Brienne updating Jaime's Kingsguard biography.
I suppose in the end the Starks won which is what everyone wanted going back to season one but it still feels flat.
Oh and Arya sailing West has a distinct whiff of 'spinoff sequel cancelled after one season' about it.
- Randall Flagg
- Rep: 139
Re: HBO's A Game of Thrones
So overall, I loved the series. It’s the greatest series to ever grace television. And I mean that considering all factors, not just the story and acting; the cinematography, the diverse and numerous ensemble cast, the MUSICAL SCORE, the complexity of the story and collective engagement with the fan base. No one was writing countless hours of theories and debating on how Breaking Bad or the Sopranos would end.
No other show had people evaluating every line of dialogue to find deeper meaning. Is there another television thread on any show as large as a GoT thread on any other forum you peruse? Just look at Reddit. This show spoke to people and gave them a connection with millions of others like no other.
Was it perfect in every sense? Of course not. There were many times where they stumbled. Dorne being the greatest example of this. But the reality is Martin went off the rails in book 4 and 5, and made it impossible to capture his sudden expansion as faithfully for television. This hurt storylines they couldn’t follow and affected later material. Book 3 ends with Tyrion killing Tywin. The show took over half its episode count to get us there. Book 5 ends with Cersei’s walk of shame, Jon being stabbed, and Dany flying off on Drogon for the first time. Sansa is in the Vale just recently escaping Joffrey’s wedding, and Arya has just regained her eyesight with the Faceless Men. Bran has just started training with the 3 eyed raven.
Everything that happened after these moments on the show were done by D&D. They took book 4 and 5 and essentially condensed all of that into Season 5. So a lot of things had to get cut since they condensed the two largest books into one season. Martin has had 8 years and hasn’t figured out how to get all his characters back to Westeros in The Winds of Winter, let alone with the 3 extra players in the Game the show never included.
So yes, they took short cuts. And yes that made some plot threads never materialize to the expectation we built up. We’ve (Me at least) spent countless hours watching videos and reading complex and detailed theories on the book’s (and show’s) ending. We had expectations that weren’t met, but we didn’t give other great shows like Breaking Bad or The Sopranos the same scrutiny.
The seeds of Dany being less than altruistic was apparent from the start. She hatched fucking dragons in the desert after being abandoned by everyone whom had worshipped her just day’s before. She was going to be the mother of the Great Kahl, then lost her husband and child. So she hatches fucking dragons in the middle of the desert with not a penny to her name, to conquering 4 cities and amassing an army before even getting to Westeros. She’s called “Mysha” by the slaves she freed, and told by the priests of Rh’llor that she’s the savior of mankind. She then defeats the Army of the dead and defeats the family who murdered her father and took their home from.
She’s always threatened to burn those who defy her position as the breaker of chains. She’d been stopped from doing so by Jorah and Selmy in Essos. And Tyrion stayed her hand once in Mereen after she came back with the Dothraki. He stayed her hand when they sailed to Westeros. Remember Olenna Tyrell telling her to “be a dragon”? He stayed her hand when Euron attacked her fleet. He stayed her hand after the failed attack at Casterly Rock, which resulted in her just burning the Lannister Army. He stayed her hand after Cersei refused to bend the knee after their meeting in the Dragon Pit with the wight. He stopped her from roasting King’s Landing after The Long Night, and he stayed her hand after they killed Rhaegal. That’s seven times Tyrion stopped Dany from nuking King’s Landing before she finally did.
“Out of nowhere” my ass. People just weren’t paying attention.
I wish some things were done differently, but this was a fucking masterpiece.
