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Re: Record plunge for the Dow
Free market gone wild? What free market? Can anyone show it to me?
People forget easily. The exact same rhetoric was used in the exact same situations in the early 1900s. Panic of 1907. "Oh the damn bankers, we need a regulator!". Bring in the FED, drafted by those very same bankers. The great depression? "Oh, the market's gone wild. Give us socialism, give us a new deal!".
There hasn't been a free market in America for a hundred years. Europe has never really had one. Free markets don't create debt economies. Free markets don't keep interest rates artificially low. Free markets don't create more money than is needed.
And now we're here again. Same situation, same culprits. And everybody wants to give them more power.
Seriously, it's time to wake up and smell what system is running here. How much has changed. German Citizens in the 1930's had more rights than an American has today.
- Randall Flagg
- Rep: 139
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
Thank you Polluxlm. Very well put.
And to PaSnow, I don't try to hide my political beliefs under some guise of "objectivity" and "independence." I'm a libertarian who supports free-market values and self-determination. I'm voting for McCain because his policies make up more fiscal sense than Obama's. It's funny you attack McCain for creating more Wars, but it's Obama who is threatening Pakistan, wants to let Iran become a problem and refuses to acknowlege tremendous gains in Iraq. Both parties have screwed the pooch on this one, but (Bush)Republicans have borrowed typical Democratic spending policies. It's not the banks that have caused this. Banks exist to make money. It's teh government meddling in the market and forcing Fannie and Freddie to give loans to poor people.
Don't for a second think I support Bush's economic policy. He is about as far from a free market as one can get. I get it, you think Obama is Muhammed reincarnted here to save us. I'm not interested in Hope and the only Change Obama offers is to change the rate in which we plummet. You don't save a struggling economy by creating new social programs (and the most exspensive ever).
You lecture me on partisanship, and then post 500 words on how McCain and Republicans are to blame. The difference between you and I is that I'm settling on McCain. In my perfect world, Ron Paul would be the President. But I get the feeling that if you could singlehandedly pick the president out of all of this year's candidates, you'd still go with Obama. That sir, is where we differ.
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
You lecture me on partisanship, and then post 500 words on how McCain and Republicans are to blame.
As I said, I wasn't so much trying to make a case 'For Obama' but was simply using your one-way biased tactics to make a point. Note how I also said "The whole system is fucked. Republicans fared no better than Dems in this." which makes the two on equal footing AND "Sure Obama & Dems fucked us also on many bills".
As for me, while I favored Obama over Clinton for a few reasons, I would not go so far as to say he's my favorite choice. If you asked me a year ago I would have sworn Al Gore would step in & win. I'm also & have been a big fan of Biden for some time (a couple years ago said to others why he never ran for President, I later found out he did). Ideally I think a Biden or Gore with Michael Bloomberg ticket would be the best of all worlds. Experience, leadership, executive experience, foreign policy experience, economic knowledge.
As for Ron Paul, I'm gonna tell you why I never bought into him. He wants to do away with the income tax & implement a National Sales Tax. Well, most people who make under about $60K spend pretty much most of their money. Therefore they would in essence be taxed at 100%. Whereas people who make over say $300K, especially those making in the millions, spend relatively little, so they may only be taxed at 25% of their income, ince they might only spend less than $100K in a year. Therefore, the working class would be taxed on 100% of their salary, whereas the wealthy would be taxed at maybe as little as 10% of their salary or less. Sound to me like someone's not carrying their fair share of the load. Also, his whole plan to do away with IRS & it's programs is a backhanded way of doing away with gov't programs like welfare. Sounds great in theory, then there's reality.
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
This has nothing to do with the free market. How can you call this evidence the free market failed when the whole reason it went under is because of regulations the government imposed on it. These lenders would not have given money to a lot of people if federal law didn't require them too.
This wasn't the free market at work here. This was a market with its hands tied behind its back being told that it had to assume risks with a portion of the population because it made leftist feel good about themselves to force banks to loan money to poor minorities.
The answer here is to remove all regulation and force businesses and banks to compete which will lower costs. People buying homes they can't afford or thinking they could make a quick buck on credit are tied into this as well. Ultimately this comes down to people buying shit they shouldn't have and the democrats saying go ahead and buy it anyway because you should have the best quality of life you can imagine.
Now with Obama coming into office, it's only going to get worse. We're going to have a President and Congress with no fiscal sense who are going to increase our national debt and continue these warped market policies to provide people with homes and items they can't afford on their own.
Just look at the Soviet Union to see my point. Their economy collapsed because they government tried to control it and didn't let the market work itself out. Greed is a the driver behing an economy. Greed is good. The whole Reagan generation has this sense of entitlement that is a complete 180 from the WW2 era. People think everything should be provided for them rather than having to work for it. We're a society of instant gratification that only sees why lies in front of us.
This is an epidemic that stems far from consumerism alone. A perfect example is animal right morons who bitch and moan about cattle farms and "cruelty" to animals while they goto wal-mart and buy their nice, clean steak wraped in plastic. They don't connect the dots.
Every "socialist" European nation has instituted free-market changes over the past 15 years and seen an increase in their economy. American liberals (and dipshit soccer moms/nascar fans) fail to look at history and the world around them and acknowledge that "Hey, maybe it's a bad idea to use the same principles that got us into this mess to get us out of it."
Very thought-provoking post Randall. Very interesting.
Although you called it "The Reagan generation"... I think alot of the 'entitlement' attitude lies SOLELY in the baby boomer generation. Not Gen X or Y, but the boomers are in large to blame for the entitlement attitude.
Something that as you said, was not in the WW2/Golden gen.
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
And for you US citizens, let me tell you something: Clinton didn't destroy your country, he tried to get it more in line with the rest of the Western world (which in my book, is a good idea - it's time you guys catch up). If you follow that up with a war mongering government like the one lead by Mr. George W. Bush, you're setting yourself up for massive failure. You can't be liberal on social issues and conservative on defense and economic issues. Pick one, preferably the system that has proven successful in the rest of the Western world.
I know Clinton is thought of as some God overseas, but he most definitely played a role in our collapse. Majority of bills signed that led to this mess were signed by him.
I have no desire to "catch up" to the rest of the western world. You guys are heading towards collapse as well and have a saber rattling Russia licking its chops. That's not something for the US to aspire to.
Besides, we used to be the leader of the free world, not play "catch up".
And you keep bringing up welfare & the dirt poor. Do you think people on welfare are buying $800k houses in Vegas or Miami?? Poor people rent Einstein...
They used to rent. Clinton told them they can have whatever they wanted regardless of cost, and Bush continued this. Now their houses are rotting in foreclosure and the ones who aren't able to rent are now living in the tent cities popping up all over the country.
That fake boom Clinton presided over is now roosting in these tent cities.
for every Democratic inner-city welfare recepient that is overspending there's probably some republican, gun-toting Jerry Springer trailer park living recepient with Direct TV saying "Yeehaw I just got me a damn new HDTV at Walmart!!".
That's true. The fleecing of America crossed party lines.
- tejastech08
- Rep: 194
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
Looks like the stock market responded strong today. Thank goodness.
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
Because the damage is obvious. The media isn't telling me a fucking thing I didn't know two years ago. When propety values were plummeting, foreclosures were rising, gas was skyrocketing...
I can feel it. I'm living it.
That's the difference this time. I wouldn't trust the media to tell me the weather, but this time I know it's going on through my own life. Still doesn't stop the media from overexaggerating my own perception on the situation though.
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
Axélle01 wrote:It affects all of us... 2 major banks in belgium are on the verge of bankruptie because of the stuff thats happening in the US . Im scared of what could happen , ppl cant pay there bills anymore , they get fired... Whats left for my kids ?? Is history repeating and are we going back to the 30's ? This is really serious... Do you know for a 1 L of gas we pay almost 1.50$ !! not jokin
Neither Fortis, nor Dexia will go bankrupt, I guarantee you that. Unlike American banks they perform hefty credit checks before handing out loans, they don't advertise for credit cards and they have a significant cash flow. The average Belgian owns what's in their house. Heck, most people don't even loan money for a car over here. You buy the car that you can afford. If people keep their cool and don't massively withdraw their savings, we will ride out this storm just fine.
We will see a minor dent in our economy compared to the mayhem in the States. Our stock exchanges will need to correct themselves for the investments we have in the American economy (and that will put a big damper on our welfare), but we are not doomed by any means. Our governments will need to invest money that otherwise could've been used to stimulate the economy, but it will only slow things down. This is, compared to what they have in the states, a minor setback.
And in the end, even the US will bounce back. Either with a full-blown free market, ready to go through this whole cycle again (there will always be corruption to bring this whole thing down again); or with a model very similar to what we have in Europe right now.
And for you US citizens, let me tell you something: Clinton didn't destroy your country, he tried to get it more in line with the rest of the Western world (which in my book, is a good idea - it's time you guys catch up). If you follow that up with a war mongering government like the one lead by Mr. George W. Bush, you're setting yourself up for massive failure. You can't be liberal on social issues and conservative on defense and economic issues. Pick one, preferably the system that has proven successful in the rest of the Western world.
I was shocked to see you know so much about it, so my only conclusion is that your a belgian too 
Your right , we buy with the money we have , what we can afford . Everything i have i own and bought with my own money...I do have a credit card that i use only for emergencies.
