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Re: Record plunge for the Dow
How can you call this evidence the free market failed
You answered that for me...
when the whole reason it went under is because of regulations the government imposed on it. These lenders would not have given money to a lot of people if federal law didn't require them too.This wasn't the free market at work here. This was a market with its hands tied behind its back being told that it had to assume risks with a portion of the population because it made leftist feel good about themselves to force banks to loan money to poor minorities
Our government's meddling is what led to its downfall. We're not going to magically appear better than ever tomorrow. There are going to be massive consequences to this looooooooong in the making disaster, and free markets aren't going to be the talk of the town.
You know where we're headed, and Obama is licking his chops at the thought of it.
Hell, we could potentially see something like a reverse "domino theory" engulf the world.
I agree with most of what you're saying. While I am an independent, I definitely lean conservative and what these clowns have done to us is vomit inducing.
- Randall Flagg
- Rep: 139
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
The answer to all of this is simple and is already in motion. How did we get out of the last depression?
I wonder where we might go this time......
Time to instill some pride and values back into the western world. A generation of sloths and leaches are going to go to an 8-week motivational seminar for the phony tough and the crazy brave - then off to a land that looks much like mars at night.
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
ppl cant pay there bills anymore , they get fired... Whats left for my kids ?? Is history repeating and are we going back to the 30's ?
Ask Bill Clinton. He wanted welfare recipients with no income other than food stamps to be able to own mansions without even a basic credit check. For some reason, liberals were surprised when those food stamps were unable to pay off the mansions. Now houses are rotting all over the country and we basically have trillions in worthless junk.
Aint life grand?:laugh:
- Randall Flagg
- Rep: 139
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
Luckily I just get to sit back and watch all of this. There's always a job in my line of work and if the economy is gonna go to shit, I'm not going to be getting out anytime soon. Might even volunteer to come back over.
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
Flagg is absolutely right. People trying to live above their means played a huge role in this. People unable to afford homes do not need to be able to purchase them. People who are unable to afford gas do not need to be driving SUV's. These status symbols got people nowhere. A few weeks ago I mentioned in one of these threads how I saw some young dude at the gas station putting 5 bucks(barely over a gallon) of gas in his SUV. That's just absurd on so many levels. He(or his parents) are likely paying 3 or 4 hundred bucks a month for him to drive a vehicle he can only put a gallon of gas in at a time.
This is why houses are rotting and cars are rusting on car lots.
The fake American dream is over. The reality show has ended.
Only consolation for me in this disaster is I have such little debt. Never bought one of these houses that grow on trees mainly because I'm single and have no kids. Didn't need to own a house by myself. I paid my car off last year, and I only have one credit card.
- Randall Flagg
- Rep: 139
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
Exactly. People have been ecouraged to keep up with the Jonses. When I was in limbo a couple years ago before this whole Army thing corrected itself, I was working a gig as a customer service representative for a major American cable company. Some guy called in because we had cut his cable for not paying his bill. Now anyone who has cable knows there are different plans of cable with the be all end all being the platinum package that runs about $150 a month. This dipshit hadn't paid in two months abd was upset that we had cut him off. He began to lecture me on even though he was poor, he had a RIGHT to the same cable that rich people got.
This is the underlying sense of entitlement that American people have been led to believe they have a right to. It's not hard work or effort that determines quality of lilfe; simply existing means you should be happy and have every luxury life can afford. I'm not sitting on a soap box either. When I was in college I got my first credit card. It soon went from a 300$ credit limit to $15,000. And guess what, I used every god damn cent of credit to buy whatever my heart desried. Tabs were on me, every video game, ate out all the time, basically any whim I had or everything I wanted I bought. Since my family is straight middle class and I refuse to ask others to pay for my dipshit choices, I took out loans to pay off my credit card. The absurdity in such behavior is self evident. But I was in college with no money and wanted to live in style and not within my means; I wanted to keep up with all the kids who weren't on scholarships and had mommy and daddy to pay all their bills. So once I graduated and the loan payments were due, I had to man up and pay the price for my years of reckless behavior. For the first 18 months I was in the Army I lived off beef ravioli and grilled cheese to stay within my budget. I couldn't afford to go out on weekends with my peers because I didn't have the money to do it. Luckily I've come out on the other side of it and have plenty of disposable income and hopefully with be completely debt free in the next year.
My point is not what a dipshit I was/am. But how it takes a financial crisis to jolt people into reality. As long as someone is there to bail you out; you're never going to learn. That is exactly what is running like a cancer throughout our society. This mentality of I deserve this or that simply because I want it is crippling us. This politically correct babble and refusal to call a spade a spade is preventing the issues at hand from really being addressed. People need to fuck up and drown to learn from their mistakes. The US Economy needs a serious hit and to be knocked the fuck out for a few minutes. When it comes to, it will see what it needs to do and correct its behavior. Simply delaying the inevitable by reinforcing bad behavior and policy is not going to do us any good.
Rather than point blame at other people or political parties, every American needs to have a serious come to Jesus and decide that they're not going to live a lifestyle they can't afford.
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
Our government needs to collapse. They're worthless pansies. They're whining about passing a 700 billion bailout? Why? The Fed just unleashed 630 billion while they all played circle jerk.
Pretty soon we're gonna be using dollars for toilet paper.
Sept. 29 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Reserve will pump an additional $630 billion into the global financial system, flooding banks with cash to alleviate the worst banking crisis since the Great Depression.
The Fed increased its existing currency swaps with foreign central banks by $330 billion to $620 billion to make more dollars available worldwide. The Term Auction Facility, the Fed's emergency loan program, will expand by $300 billion to $450 billion. The European Central Bank, the Bank of England and the Bank of Japan are among the participating authorities.
The Fed's expansion of liquidity, the biggest since credit markets seized up last year, came hours before the U.S. House of Representatives rejected a $700 billion bailout for the financial industry. The crisis is reverberating through the global economy, causing stocks to plunge and forcing European governments to rescue four banks over the past two days alone.
``Today's blast of term liquidity will settle the funding markets down, and allow trust to slowly be restored between borrowers and lenders,'' said Chris Rupkey, chief financial economist at Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ Ltd. in New York. On the other hand, ``the Fed's balance sheet is about to explode.''
The MSCI World Index of stocks in 23 developed markets sank 6 percent, the most since its creation in 1970. Credit markets deteriorated further as authorities tried to save more financial institutions from collapse.
European Rescue
European governments have rescued four banks in two days and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. said today it helped Citigroup Inc. buy the banking operations of Wachovia Corp. after its shares collapsed. The Standard & Poor's 500 Index fell 3.8 percent and the cost of borrowing dollars for three months rose to the highest since January. The rate for euros hit a record.
``If people think the authorities may give in to fears, they are wrong,'' Financial Stability Forum Chairman Mario Draghi said today in Amsterdam, where the international group of regulators and finance officials is meeting. ``There is willingness and determination on winning the battle to restore confidence and stability.''
Banks and brokers have slowed lending as they struggle to restore their capital after $586 billion in credit losses and writedowns since the mortgage crisis began a year ago. The bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. also sparked fears among banks they wouldn't be repaid by counterparties, driving up the cost of short-term loans between banks.
Funding Risk
``By committing to provide a very large quantity of term funding, the Federal Reserve actions should reassure financial market participants that financing will be available against good collateral, lessening concerns about funding and rollover risk,'' the central bank said.
The Bank of England and the ECB will each double the size of their dollar swap facilities with the Fed to as much as $80 billion and $240 billion, respectively. The Swiss National Bank and the Bank of Japan will also double their dollar swap lines, while the central banks in Australia, Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Canada tripled theirs.
All the banks extended their facilities until the end of April 2009.
The Fed is also increasing the size of its three 84-day TAF sales to $75 billion apiece, from $25 billion. That means the Fed will make a total of $225 billion available in 84-day loans. The central bank will keep the sales of 28-day credit at $75 billion.
Special Sales
In addition, the Fed will hold two special TAF sales in November totaling $150 billion so banks can have funding available for one or two weeks over year-end. The exact timing and terms will be determined later, the Fed said. The TAF program began in December, totaling $40 billion.
The bank-rescue plan being debated by Congress today would give the Fed more power over short-term interest rates by providing authority as of Oct. 1 to pay interest on reserves held at the central bank by financial institutions. That would make it easier for the Fed to pump funds into the banking system.
Paying interest on reserves puts a ``floor'' under the traded overnight rate, which would allow a central bank ``to provide liquidity during times of stress'' without affecting the rate, New York Fed economists said in a paper last month.
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
Russian markets suspend trading
MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) '” Russian stock exchanges suspended trading for several hours Tuesday after shares plummeted soon after markets opened.
Both exchanges '” the main RTS index and the MICEX currency exchange '” reopened later in the day, the indices said.
Financial regulators ordered the suspension after the RTS plunged more than 8 percent in the first few minutes of trading. The Federal Financial Markets Service (FFMS) also suspended the MICEX in the first few minutes of trading in anticipation of big losses.
The turmoil in the Russian markets stems from concern over global growth following the recent instability in financial markets around the world.
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
It affects all of us... 2 major banks in belgium are on the verge of bankruptie because of the stuff thats happening in the US . Im scared of what could happen , ppl cant pay there bills anymore , they get fired... Whats left for my kids ?? Is history repeating and are we going back to the 30's ? This is really serious... Do you know for a 1 L of gas we pay almost 1.50$ !! not jokin
Neither Fortis, nor Dexia will go bankrupt, I guarantee you that. Unlike American banks they perform hefty credit checks before handing out loans, they don't advertise for credit cards and they have a significant cash flow. The average Belgian owns what's in their house. Heck, most people don't even loan money for a car over here. You buy the car that you can afford. If people keep their cool and don't massively withdraw their savings, we will ride out this storm just fine.
We will see a minor dent in our economy compared to the mayhem in the States. Our stock exchanges will need to correct themselves for the investments we have in the American economy (and that will put a big damper on our welfare), but we are not doomed by any means. Our governments will need to invest money that otherwise could've been used to stimulate the economy, but it will only slow things down. This is, compared to what they have in the states, a minor setback.
And in the end, even the US will bounce back. Either with a full-blown free market, ready to go through this whole cycle again (there will always be corruption to bring this whole thing down again); or with a model very similar to what we have in Europe right now.
And for you US citizens, let me tell you something: Clinton didn't destroy your country, he tried to get it more in line with the rest of the Western world (which in my book, is a good idea - it's time you guys catch up). If you follow that up with a war mongering government like the one lead by Mr. George W. Bush, you're setting yourself up for massive failure. You can't be liberal on social issues and conservative on defense and economic issues. Pick one, preferably the system that has proven successful in the rest of the Western world.
Re: Record plunge for the Dow
This is good. America needs this to happen to show that liberal economic and social programs destroy an economy. This isn't proof of the free market collapsing, its proof that government medling in the market and forcing companies to give money to poor families with no collateral is poor fiscal policy. This is going to send a much needed jolt to people to wake the fuck up and start living within their means. It's going to teach people that they alone are responsible for their welfare and can't delude themselves into thinking the government will be there when it comes time to pay the piper.
The Republicans are right on this. Even if their reason for doing it is political posturing, the outcome is still correct. We need to ride this out and let the market correct itself and kick the government yoke. Adding more fuel to the fire that was created by government intervention isn't going to help us.
This has nothing to do with the free market. How can you call this evidence the free market failed when the whole reason it went under is because of regulations the government imposed on it. These lenders would not have given money to a lot of people if federal law didn't require them too.
This wasn't the free market at work here. This was a market with its hands tied behind its back being told that it had to assume risks with a portion of the population because it made leftist feel good about themselves to force banks to loan money to poor minorities.
The answer here is to remove all regulation and force businesses and banks to compete which will lower costs. People buying homes they can't afford or thinking they could make a quick buck on credit are tied into this as well. Ultimately this comes down to people buying shit they shouldn't have and the democrats saying go ahead and buy it anyway because you should have the best quality of life you can imagine.
Now with Obama coming into office, it's only going to get worse. We're going to have a President and Congress with no fiscal sense who are going to increase our national debt and continue these warped market policies to provide people with homes and items they can't afford on their own.
Just look at the Soviet Union to see my point. Their economy collapsed because they government tried to control it and didn't let the market work itself out. Greed is a the driver behing an economy. Greed is good. The whole Reagan generation has this sense of entitlement that is a complete 180 from the WW2 era. People think everything should be provided for them rather than having to work for it. We're a society of instant gratification that only sees why lies in front of us.This is an epidemic that stems far from consumerism alone. A perfect example is animal right morons who bitch and moan about cattle farms and "cruelty" to animals while they goto wal-mart and buy their nice, clean steak wraped in plastic. They don't connect the dots.
Every "socialist" European nation has instituted free-market changes over the past 15 years and seen an increase in their economy. American liberals (and dipshit soccer moms/nascar fans) fail to look at history and the world around them and acknowledge that "Hey, maybe it's a bad idea to use the same principles that got us into this mess to get us out of it."
Randall give it up. Check your partisan bias at the door in this thread of all threads. Like John McCain "economy" is not your strong suit. At least James remains mostly impartial and blames Repubs & Dems, Clinton and Bush, you're one way blame game is getting tired.
The whole system is fucked. Republicans fared no better than Dems in this. Are you aware John McCains senior economic advisor is Phil Gramm, author of the Gramm Leach Biley Act, which DEREGULATED the banking industry in 2001?? And it goes without saying that McCain voted 'Yes' on the bill. And if is so blatantly obvious the dems ruined the economy why didn't the Republicans make the neccisary changes from 2001-2007 while they had a Reupblican President AND a majority in the Senate?! Sure Obama & Dems fucked us also on many bills, but it's not the time to say "It's the lefts fault" that's fucking weak, and this Iraq War sank us $500 BILLION into the toilet. John McCain voted for it, Barack Obama didn't (I'm not making a case about this, just using Randalls biased logic to prove a point). To quote you, "It's only going to get worse" John McCains going to continue to start wars, with no responsibility or forsight, just more wars, more money spent. You talk about Dems being fiscally irresponsible?? The US balanced the budget under Clinton.
http://www.newslinker.net/news.php?viewStory=919
So you can keep on beleiving your 3 second sound bites, about "fically responsible" and "family values" that you love to hear, and Obama's gonna "raise taxes" & all... and while that's been going on, you can ignore the sight of our nations economy going into turmoil & any of us needed loans for college or a mortgage, or with money invested in the stock market. and are paying 3x's what we paid for gas than in 2000, and costs of eggs, milk & bread (my chicken wings at a local bar on Monday nights just went up from $.25 cents to $.35) getting higher while our paychecks aren't. And when you ask yourself "Why are people suddenly voting for Obama/Biden??" You can think really hard for that answer.
And you keep bringing up welfare & the dirt poor. Do you think people on welfare are buying $800k houses in Vegas or Miami?? Poor people rent Einstein... it's the middle class who buy McMansions & overspend, although I know for a fact mortgage lenders embraced risky loans to cash in at the moment. I spoke with a lender who left her company, she was told years ago to "push" loans onto people, they had quota's to do so to push their quarterly profits that's all corporations look at. Part of it was give them this loan now, with thousands of dollars in closing costs, then in 5 years they refinance, with thousands of dollars in closing costs. Only eventually the housing prices depreciated, so the house was worth much less than what they paid. Why bother refinancing & just not walk away. Do you know most old-money CEO's are Republicans?? Why, the tax breaks they give them. And for every Democratic inner-city welfare recepient that is overspending there's probably some republican, gun-toting Jerry Springer trailer park living recepient with Direct TV saying "Yeehaw I just got me a damn new HDTV at Walmart!!". I'm willing to bet that the poor make up a VERY small percent of our nations GDP. I'd guess less than 5%, the US could take that hit.
We're all fucked, each & every one of us. Sure we get nice little colored pamplets from work about how if we start investing at 22 just 6% of our salary into our 401k by the time we're 55 at 8% interest we'll be a millionaire.. It's all bullshit!! The market won't yield an 8% return EVERY year for 30-40 years, it will go up, then down, then up. Yesterday the Dow closed LOWER than when Bush took office. Almost 8 years later. So, on average, if you put nothing new into your investment, you wouldn't have much more than in 2000. Maybe less!! Most of us don't have pensions anymore, a move which coincided with the gross oversalaries of Republican CEO's (Hello Carly Fiorino) Where do you think working class' pension money went to??, by the time we reach 65 Social Security will be all dried up from the baby boomers, so we'll have like $100,000 of 401k money if we're lucky to retire on.
We're fucked.
