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- tejastech08
- Rep: 194
Re: Perhaps (2023) to Drop
They fade out Finck’s solo, which seems disrespectful to the man. His curving melody from 1:41 — 1:43 sets a certain emotional tone that holds up the entire transition from the chorus to the solo.
He deserves writing credit. Partially to reward two decades of patience while this great song gathered dust.
If we are all a bit crazy from waiting to hear things in the vault, imagine how the musicians must feel.
To be fair, Robin and others were given a pretty good salary while Axl sat on the couch for years. Those guys had a pretty good job overall.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Perhaps (2023) to Drop
Isn't that an odd order to list it?
Axl
Brain
Duff
Slash
Fortus
Dizzy.Why is Brain listed so high? Why is Duff before Slash? It's not alphabetic, and I doubt a random order would find Brain so high up. Normally you would just go Axl, Slash, Duff...and so forth.
Could this indicate a writing credit or some other importance?
It's weird huh.
Maybe it's like Axl first cos it's obviously his song.
Brain next cos his recording is the next oldest dating from around 2000. Axl's way of being kind.
Duff next to remind Slash that he isn't the band's number 2 (even though we all know he is lol).
Then slash ahead of Fortus because he's fucking Slash and the world wants to read his name sooner.
Fortus ahead of Dizzy because poor Dizzy is the virtual gimp. (love dizzy, i'm just saying, he's not fighting duff any time soon).
Re: Perhaps (2023) to Drop
It's been 2 years, friends.
I'm glad that stuff is getting released although I can't help but be bummed for Finck, Bucket, and Bumblefoot. Whatever you think of them, they all put in significant time and energy into this band and their efforts are more or less relegated to ghostwriter status. I'm also bummed out about all the live performances and different performances that we'll never have. Axl spent the last of his voice in 2009 shows no one will ever see and a couple of gigs for AC/DC in 2016 for another band.
I like "Perhaps" but I cannot help but think the likes of Ezrin who thought that the material needed a more work. Another verse and chorus here, a tightened up bridge there, and so on. I think most of Chinese Democracy is pretty good, flawed mix and overstuffed sections notwithstanding, but there's a problem of not just too many coats of paint but repainting the same exact place in the same exact way. To that point and I know I'll be in the minority but "Absurd" is their best collective work since the reunion. They took a messy techno-rock song and turned it from a wannabe 2000 version of "It's So Easy" into a 2020 version of "It's So Easy". It's on brand, it's messy, and it's a fun high energy song. The bridge is still terrible though but they shined up a piece of shit and cut it down to its bare essentials. Exactly what you want.
Anyway, onto "Perhaps". Axls vocal dubs really mess with the flow of the song, like the 'long time' section on "There Was A Time" where he constantly tried to force a hook that wasn't there. Slash's solo is just standard blues posturing, there's nothing to it whatsoever. No form or meaning, just basically a slightly more elaborate noisescape like the background riffing throughout the main song. The piano tickles are cliche. This is a "B" song that with a little work could've been made into a "B+" or "A-" song. It's unfortunate that wasn't done but it is what it is.
There are those who feel the best work was put onto CD and they may be right but I'm not sure I agree. I think Curly Shuffle, Zodiac, Soul Monster, Oklahoma, and D-Tune all have a lot of potential. The question is how much work was put into these songs, whether or not Axl grew out of his depression and issues as time went on and wrote some more interesting lyrics, but they have the makings of a comeback record. It would be Use Your Illusion III with a good deal of 90s rock vibes and the underside of more experimental CD session stuff. If they can find a punch-through song or two, I think it's a pretty big success.
On a final note, I've always been struck by the quote from Axl that said that CD was "the album that got through the red tape" which suggests a good chunk of the material had it's origins with the 1996ish version of the band. I think these songs, whatever they are, are going to be your next couple of singles.
Re: Perhaps (2023) to Drop
It's been 2 years, friends.
I agree with a lot of this, especially regarding Absurd.
Classic GN'R was modulation per excellence. They would always get a basic structure down, then do something different at the end of the song to wrap it up with variation. This is sorely missing from most of the CD songs. They tend to go nowhere. At times Axl hasn't even bothered to write a second verse. It suggests he was struggling with creativity, and his complete lack of new material for 20 years seem to confirm that notion.
The songs that do have this tend to have other problems. Better for example has a great outro and a very good verse, but the chorus and the bridge are a mess. The first half of TWAT is passable but not really great.
In Perhaps the saving graces for me are the piano and synths, and actually the little additions from Axl do help it also. Otherwise the song feels aimless with no punch to it. Slash is a major disappointment, definitely phoning it in here. I don't get any impression from Duff at all.
I think the reception is mostly down to the money put down on marketing. The youtube comments are a stark difference from Hard Skool. On the latter it was dominant approval, on Perhaps I sense about 50% of the reactions are "this is shit".
Re: Perhaps (2023) to Drop
Good to see you back, Wags. 
I'm glad that stuff is getting released although I can't help but be bummed for Finck, Bucket, and Bumblefoot. Whatever you think of them, they all put in significant time and energy into this band and their efforts are more or less relegated to ghostwriter status
It really is bittersweet.
When listening toPerhaps on release, I could picture myself in my 20s cruising with this as the soundtrack.
It's like a time capsule has been pried open for something that never should've been buried in the first place.
I cannot help but think the likes of Ezrin who thought that the material needed a more work
My opinion on Ezrin is now a complete 180. I used to think he was crazy for his harsh feelings on the material and/or trying to sabotage the project...now I realize he was on point.
When the guy who produced The fucking Wall tells you that your material is overcooked, a mess, and a handful of songs worthy....listen to him instead of moving on to the next guy.
I think Ezrin could've saved the project if given a proper chance.
The double/trilogy idea of 2000-02 needed to be abandoned in favor of a nice tight, concise album. There should've been no A-B-C list...just an A list.
This project wasn't a concept album...yet was sorta being treated like one. Drop it.
Worry about B and C after you've released the main album.
There are those who feel the best work was put onto CD and they may be right but I'm not sure I agree. I think Curly Shuffle, Zodiac, Soul Monster, Oklahoma, and D-Tune all have a lot of potential
I agree.
In the end, Chinese Democracy got cluster fucked by a couple things...
Turning it into a leaks + 3 bonus tracks to fill out the album
The Best Buy deal meant to simply wipe off the debt, toss the beer coaster out the door, and get the reunion on course
When I heard Oklahoma, I realized they weren't lying...they had held on to strong material.
I'd love to see the original track list that Axl said was ready in 2002.
That would be telling...and it's probably a lot different than 2008.
Re: Perhaps (2023) to Drop
At times Axl hasn't even bothered to write a second verse
Not only that...I can't hardly believe he never went back to that chorus.
While I do like it...it's clearly a demo that was polished up for release.
Crazy when you think about it... especially considering how much time he had to work on this stuff if he desired.
When Merck would mention the infamous B list...I guarantee this was on it.
Re: Perhaps (2023) to Drop
Good to see you back, Wags.
Thanks pal.
My opinion on Ezrin is now a complete 180. I used to think he was crazy for his harsh feelings on the material and/or trying to sabotage the project...now I realize he was on point.
I've reached a point of equilibrium on the whole saga. I think everyone was half-right and half-wrong. Everyone had the best of intentions with what they did. Axl. Slash. Ezrin. Azoff. And so on down the line. And this is why I think the only album we got was "2000 Intentions".
"If my intentions were misunderstood, please be kind, I've done all I could..."
In the end, Chinese Democracy got cluster fucked by a couple things...
In my book, "Chinese Democracy" is basically a meme that Axl fell in love with that eventually got stale.
It was the 1990s version of "Not In This Lifetime" or "Stay of Execution" or "Slash is in my ass".
I don't think an album called "Chinese Democracy" ever actually existed. In my view, we got an album called 2000 Intentions and some B-Sides or concepts for an aborted trilogy. "I'm sad at my girlfriend. I'm mad at my old band" - this is what nearly every song boils down to and why songs like "IRS" and "If The World" are such palate cleansers.
When I first heard the title "Chinese Democracy", I thought we were gonna get a dark Rage Against the Machine meets Nine Inch Nails meets KMFDM album. It's why I've always championed stuff like "Oh My God" and "Silkworms" because exploring in that direction is absolutely up my alley. But really, this album doesn't exist. We got the title track which went from a raw, hard sounding rocker to a bloated, tired mess and even in it's best iteration wasn't enough to carry the weight of that title. And we got "Shackler's" which is a pretty badass dance rock track and "Sorry" which, I'm Sorry For Axl, he completely shit the bed on living up to the instrumental with his petty lyrics. The only good line in that song besides his Count Chocula voice is "it's hard to live with the truth about you instead of the lies about me". Pure venom and I tip my hat to him but again, this is where the likes of Ezrin were right. You work and rework this song until it's an absolute monster.
Turning it into a leaks + 3 bonus tracks to fill out the album
It's an interesting topic.
"Appetite" is the young party rock album, "Lies" is growing up, "Illusions" is grappling with love, loss, and fame and "Chinese" is essentially disillusionment and an attempt at redemption. This is my greatest criticism of Chinese Democracy, as I noted in the previous paragraph above, it's basically all about the same topics. The only song that really has a different style, lyrically and vocally is "Better" and that's should've been the transition point to CD2 being about "redemption and acceptance". This would've been a whole arc and kind of tie everything together.
But we just don't have that. Our only hope is that Axl laid down some killer vocals 2004-2010.
And even if we did, the majority of the stuff we have left is still ruminating on the past and 1990s nostalgia, in other words, byproducts of a depressed mind.
Re: Perhaps (2023) to Drop
Really well said. To print “Chinese Democracy Starts Now” on a t-shirt and then make everyone wait eight years …
The title is still topical and relevant. That country is a human rights nightmare and who knows how much worse it will get once its current bad debt/real estate problems explode.
But it came to him after watching “Kundun” at a time in his life when, like the Dalai Lama, he felt a bit like an exile.
Now he has patched things up with the two guys he once alienated. He is in a different place.
He should release as much of that era’s music as possible so he and all of us can properly assess it, appreciate it, and move on as better people for having done so.
- killingvector
- Rep: 21
Re: Perhaps (2023) to Drop
James wrote:Good to see you back, Wags.
Thanks pal.
James wrote:My opinion on Ezrin is now a complete 180. I used to think he was crazy for his harsh feelings on the material and/or trying to sabotage the project...now I realize he was on point.
I've reached a point of equilibrium on the whole saga. I think everyone was half-right and half-wrong. Everyone had the best of intentions with what they did. Axl. Slash. Ezrin. Azoff. And so on down the line. And this is why I think the only album we got was "2000 Intentions".
"If my intentions were misunderstood, please be kind, I've done all I could..."
James wrote:In the end, Chinese Democracy got cluster fucked by a couple things...
In my book, "Chinese Democracy" is basically a meme that Axl fell in love with that eventually got stale.
It was the 1990s version of "Not In This Lifetime" or "Stay of Execution" or "Slash is in my ass".
I don't think an album called "Chinese Democracy" ever actually existed. In my view, we got an album called 2000 Intentions and some B-Sides or concepts for an aborted trilogy. "I'm sad at my girlfriend. I'm mad at my old band" - this is what nearly every song boils down to and why songs like "IRS" and "If The World" are such palate cleansers.
When I first heard the title "Chinese Democracy", I thought we were gonna get a dark Rage Against the Machine meets Nine Inch Nails meets KMFDM album. It's why I've always championed stuff like "Oh My God" and "Silkworms" because exploring in that direction is absolutely up my alley. But really, this album doesn't exist. We got the title track which went from a raw, hard sounding rocker to a bloated, tired mess and even in it's best iteration wasn't enough to carry the weight of that title. And we got "Shackler's" which is a pretty badass dance rock track and "Sorry" which, I'm Sorry For Axl, he completely shit the bed on living up to the instrumental with his petty lyrics. The only good line in that song besides his Count Chocula voice is "it's hard to live with the truth about you instead of the lies about me". Pure venom and I tip my hat to him but again, this is where the likes of Ezrin were right. You work and rework this song until it's an absolute monster.
James wrote:Turning it into a leaks + 3 bonus tracks to fill out the album
It's an interesting topic.
"Appetite" is the young party rock album, "Lies" is growing up, "Illusions" is grappling with love, loss, and fame and "Chinese" is essentially disillusionment and an attempt at redemption. This is my greatest criticism of Chinese Democracy, as I noted in the previous paragraph above, it's basically all about the same topics. The only song that really has a different style, lyrically and vocally is "Better" and that's should've been the transition point to CD2 being about "redemption and acceptance". This would've been a whole arc and kind of tie everything together.
But we just don't have that. Our only hope is that Axl laid down some killer vocals 2004-2010.
And even if we did, the majority of the stuff we have left is still ruminating on the past and 1990s nostalgia, in other words, byproducts of a depressed mind.
As I huge CD fan (usually the demos), I think you are on point: there are some truly remarkable ideas on CD: Madagascar, Better, Prostitute, Catcher… but the execution was lacking. (that album mix of Maddie was an atrocity)
But what was up with Axl? He rarely showed up the studio with the band, worked haphazardly….distracted perhaps?
The project was huge, the expectations were overwhelming,……. perhaps he overthought it? or failed to realize that Slash, Duff, and Izzy were the counter ballast he needed to work effectively.
I might even hazard a guess that he might be neurodivergent: ADD treated with wonderful medication focuses the mind to contemplate great ideas but spreads out actual execution far too thin.
Think up six great ideas. Start the first with a fury, transition to the second in a moment of inspiration but fail to follow through on the first, then another and another..so many great ideas but all lacking structure and the requisite blood, sweat, and tears needed to finish them.
