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Re: Current Events Thread
You keep moving the goalpost. You said he didn't end the war. I showed you actual video of him announcing an end to Vietnam. Suddenly that doesn't count because before that he was.... Fighting the war? When you're negotiating a peace deal it kind of follows logic that the war will continue until an agreement is reached.
That brief period on Ford's watch when it had the potential to reignite (they attacked one of our ships) is scary in hindsight. If it continues, it starts getting too close for comfort to the Reagan presidency....who wanted Vietnam turned into a parking lot before more Americans died.
Re: Current Events Thread
You keep moving the goalpost. You said he didn't end the war. I showed you actual video of him announcing an end to Vietnam. Suddenly that doesn't count because before that he was.... Fighting the war? When you're negotiating a peace deal it kind of follows logic that the war will continue until an agreement is reached.
How is moving the goal post? You can’t skip everything that happened in between.
JFK is like William Henry Harrison…he didn’t do much of anything. Until 1963 only a few hundred troops had died in Vietnam unless the statistics I’m looking at are not accurate.
Johnson (a democrat let me remind you) escalated it. Leave it to a Texan.
I still think Reagan is a bunch of extremely conflicting policies….from small government to massive government spending and massive changes to the tax code helping the people at the top. Massive deficit spending but for some reason republicans were all about it then.
Re: Current Events Thread
Mitch, if you want to say it took til 75’ to get everyone out, fine. But no one is ever going to say Ford ended the war. It’s always going to go to Nixon who negotiated the peace deal and announced the end of the war.
James and I have gone round and round on Reagan 
The worst thing about him, imo, was the influx of Ayn Rand acolytes and Christian conservatives who ended up taking over the party. They were given way too much power because they helped him get elected. This happened again with W, who was nowhere near the leader his old man was. HW Bush got out of Kuwait and refused to invade Iraq. That is one of the greatest decisions ever made by a president.
Re: Current Events Thread
Mitch, if you want to say it took til 75’ to get everyone out, fine. But no one is ever going to say Ford ended the war. It’s always going to go to Nixon who negotiated the peace deal and announced the end of the war.
James and I have gone round and round on Reagan
The worst thing about him, imo, was the influx of Ayn Rand acolytes and Christian conservatives who ended up taking over the party. They were given way too much power because they helped him get elected. This happened again with W, who was nowhere near the leader his old man was. HW Bush got out of Kuwait and refused to invade Iraq. That is one of the greatest decisions ever made by a president.
I'm really not sure why the Vietnam War stuff is that complicated. I have no problem giving Nixon credit for getting us out of that. And again, my issues with him are basically Watergate. I just can't overlook that.
I didn't care for the deficit exploding under Reagan (and most Republican prez) term along with the evangelical stuff. Bush Sr. looks like a genius compared to W and Trump. The economy was bad and rightly and wrongly he got blamed for it. And Clinton was seen as the younger, more energetic candidate (Clinton is a very good, if not one of the best public speakers).
The problem in modern politics is and you mentioned this a few pages ago; the Democrats can't govern effectively and the Republican can't control the looney element. To be fair, I think the Democrats have that issue too but it's not as noticable or huge. I lean left so some of this you'll probably disagree with. The Republicans in power usually end up passing their core type legislation (tax cuts for the rich etc) after that it basically stalls out because either they don't really have anything else they really need to pass OR (more likely) the wingnuts torpedo whatever else they want to do.
Democrats, I agree with socially, but they can't keep their shit in order. And basically they got multiple different people talking about whatever instead of presenting a unified front. Also their messaging sucks ass. And they always seem to have trouble selling something to the American public even if they are on the right side of the argument.
Re: Current Events Thread
I’ve been trying hard to come up with a good metaphor or example for how Nixon should be viewed when it comes to Vietnam…
I’ve really struggled to come up with one but here’s my best shot.
It’s like when you bluff at a pot once, twice, three times and fold.
If that’s what you want to give him credit for then by all means.
Re: Current Events Thread
James and I have gone round and round on Reagan
The worst thing about him, imo, was the influx of Ayn Rand acolytes and Christian conservatives who ended up taking over the party. They were given way too much power because they helped him get elected.
Yes....and this had huge consequences. It caused him to not pay any attention to the brewing AIDS epidemic in its early phase when throwing tons of money and resources at the problem might have had an impact.
He was told it was "only" a gay disease, would peter out on its own, and no need for panic.
Obviously they were wrong and before he went senile admitted it was a mistake.
HW Bush got out of Kuwait and refused to invade Iraq. That is one of the greatest decisions ever made by a president.
Yeah this was huge....a massive fork in the road moment.
He also made the decision surrounded by a cabinet and joint chiefs made of warhawks.
Imagine the clusterfuck of an occupation starting in mid 1991. The decade is entirely different if it happens. For starters, the war likely spreads.
Edit
I highly recommend the Bob Woodward book 'The Commanders'....the definitive book on Desert Shield/Desert Storm.
Re: Current Events Thread
I’ve been trying hard to come up with a good metaphor or example for how Nixon should be viewed when it comes to Vietnam…
I’ve really struggled to come up with one but here’s my best shot.
It’s like when you bluff at a pot once, twice, three times and fold.
If that’s what you want to give him credit for then by all means.
Nixon should've spent his entire life kissing LBJ's ass for ascending to the presidency.
Nixon claimed to have a "secret plan" to get us out of Vietnam...it would of course be revealed if he wins the election.
Around this same time, LBJ found out (through the CIA?) that Nixon and his team were secretly negotiating with the Vietnamese.
This was treason...he should've been arrested...or at least investigated.
LBJ balked due to worrying about it causing a constitutional crisis and ripping the country apart.
Love or hate Nixon, that decision alters everything.
Re: Current Events Thread
mitchejw wrote:I’ve been trying hard to come up with a good metaphor or example for how Nixon should be viewed when it comes to Vietnam…
I’ve really struggled to come up with one but here’s my best shot.
It’s like when you bluff at a pot once, twice, three times and fold.
If that’s what you want to give him credit for then by all means.
Nixon should've spent his entire life kissing LBJ's ass for ascending to the presidency.
Nixon claimed to have a "secret plan" to get us out of Vietnam...it would of course be revealed if he wins the election.
Around this same time, LBJ found out (through the CIA?) that Nixon and his team were secretly negotiating with the Vietnamese.
This was treason...he should've been arrested...or at least investigated.
LBJ balked due to worrying about it causing a constitutional crisis and ripping the country apart.
Love or hate Nixon, that decision alters everything.
Maybe it's just a bias toward what is generally considered modern history but I feel like this was the birth of the worst kind of politics.
I read a book called the tragedy of Richard Nixon a few years back and there were some endearing things about him. I'm sure it's pretty much the same as any other book about him. He was totally dedicated to his wife. He seemed to be a flawed man like any of us. He seemed to be brilliant in some areas and had blind spots in others.
It just seems like the true beginning of modern day sleaze politics. I remember reading that the Republicans sort of treated the impeachment of Nixon as a favor that should be owed back to them as the years passed by. When they tried to impeach Clinton in the 90s, many of those same people were still around and felt betrayed when the favor wasn't returned. I don't know how many of those people are still around today. But I do believe one of the reasons Republicans wouldn't even consider impeachment of Trump was because of how Democrats handled the impeachment in the 90s. I believe Trump took the sleaze politics of Nixon and ramped it up to the next level.
Maybe I made it up but I want to believe there was a time when trans people weren't the focal point of a political party. Most of the shit that ends up on an agenda or as a talking point is shit I couldn't care less about.
Re: Current Events Thread
I may have to check out that Nixon book. I also need to read that trilogy biography on LBJ. It's supposed to be amazing.
Maybe I made it up but I want to believe there was a time when trans people weren't the focal point of a political party. Most of the shit that ends up on an agenda or as a talking point is shit I couldn't care less about.
It's by design...and I'm getting really sick of it.
Trans....a thousand genders.... critical race theory...book banning....etc....are used by both sides intentionally as distractions. It's blatant at this point.
