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Re: The Wrestling thread
The modern matches are kind of unexciting as well. Most of the time I see a bunch of moves that build up toward a sequence that usual involves a finisher being kicked out of. Oh yeah that too, finishers are severly devalued now days. It seems like everyone kicks out of one and makes them less exciting when used.
Anyway, there's no psychology or storytelling within matches anymore I've noticed. It's just kind of people doing a bunch of moves with very little rhyme or reason. I rag on HHH, but the guy does actually try to tell a story when he does/did wrestle, he just needed someone to reign in his excesses, and cut out the fat and not have every match go 30 minutes or so.
Re: The Wrestling thread
Axl S wrote:We know the difference between a booker and a writer mitch. A booker still writes a storyline outline and plans out where they want the story to go. They then give the wrestlers notes on things they need to mention when they do any promos and any angles that need to be incorporated into their matches. They also as James mentioned sometimes need to drop angles or change course due to outside circumstances.
That’s not entirely true...pat Patterson is my evidence of this...
He never told people exactly what to do...but he provided key points and allowed the performers to fill in the holes.
That's telling people what to do. Jesus Christ.
If he told wrestler A: "during your promo you need to challenge wrestler B to a cage match at the next ppv". That's telling him what to do.
If he told wrestler A: "during your match you're going to stay down for the 3 count but get your foot on the rope, the ref will count it and accidentally give the victory to wrestler B. this will setup a bigger match between you two later". That's telling them what to do.
The wrestlers were never told to freewheel absolutely everything. Otherwise you'd have a show with no consistency.
Re: The Wrestling thread
mitchejw wrote:Axl S wrote:We know the difference between a booker and a writer mitch. A booker still writes a storyline outline and plans out where they want the story to go. They then give the wrestlers notes on things they need to mention when they do any promos and any angles that need to be incorporated into their matches. They also as James mentioned sometimes need to drop angles or change course due to outside circumstances.
That’s not entirely true...pat Patterson is my evidence of this...
He never told people exactly what to do...but he provided key points and allowed the performers to fill in the holes.
That's telling people what to do. Jesus Christ.
If he told wrestler A: "during your promo you need to challenge wrestler B to a cage match at the next ppv". That's telling him what to do.
If he told wrestler A: "during your match you're going to stay down for the 3 count but get your foot on the rope, the ref will count it and accidentally give the victory to wrestler B. this will setup a bigger match between you two later". That's telling them what to do.
The wrestlers were never told to freewheel absolutely everything. Otherwise you'd have a show with no consistency.
As i stated before, i believe the level of micro management has increased to unhelpful levels and there’s more of it now than there ever was before.
There is zero room for in individual wrestlers creativity. Do you think Roddy piper needed a script written for him? They all do now. Every one of them reads from a script.
I’m not saying it was ever a free-for-all. I’m saying that wrestlers came to the WWF with prerequisites already in their skill sets. The ones they have now that they created for themselves are basically puppets with strings attached and someone opening and closing their mouth from the inside.
Re: The Wrestling thread
The modern matches are kind of unexciting as well. Most of the time I see a bunch of moves that build up toward a sequence that usual involves a finisher being kicked out of. Oh yeah that too, finishers are severly devalued now days. It seems like everyone kicks out of one and makes them less exciting when used.
Anyway, there's no psychology or storytelling within matches anymore I've noticed. It's just kind of people doing a bunch of moves with very little rhyme or reason. I rag on HHH, but the guy does actually try to tell a story when he does/did wrestle, he just needed someone to reign in his excesses, and cut out the fat and not have every match go 30 minutes or so.
Yeah, I've noticed this big time in watching the old matches. Those Hart/Austin matches are a great example of the matches telling the story of their feud. Even the first HBK/Hart match where Hart kept putting Shawn in an arm bar, reversing every move and putting him back on the mat with that simple hold. Shawn sold it perfectly, also. It was the vet teaching the young hotshot a lesson in who the man is. The announcers never say this, the wrestlers performances did.
The last time I can remember seeing a real dramatic match was Cena/Punk which was an incredibly underrated feud. Arn Anderson was the booker (writer 
) of those matches.
Re: The Wrestling thread
Axl S wrote:mitchejw wrote:That’s not entirely true...pat Patterson is my evidence of this...
He never told people exactly what to do...but he provided key points and allowed the performers to fill in the holes.
That's telling people what to do. Jesus Christ.
If he told wrestler A: "during your promo you need to challenge wrestler B to a cage match at the next ppv". That's telling him what to do.
If he told wrestler A: "during your match you're going to stay down for the 3 count but get your foot on the rope, the ref will count it and accidentally give the victory to wrestler B. this will setup a bigger match between you two later". That's telling them what to do.
The wrestlers were never told to freewheel absolutely everything. Otherwise you'd have a show with no consistency.
As i stated before, i believe the level of micro management has increased to unhelpful levels and there’s more of it now than there ever was before.
There is zero room for in individual wrestlers creativity. Do you think Roddy piper needed a script written for him? They all do now. Every one of them reads from a script.
I’m not saying it was ever a free-for-all. I’m saying that wrestlers came to the WWF with prerequisites already in their skill sets. The ones they have now that they created for themselves are basically puppets with strings attached and someone opening and closing their mouth from the inside.
Mitch I think we are just agreeing about the same thing. I have agreed earlier that there is too much micromanagement and too many cooks in the booking kitchen.
I agree scripted promos are dogshit. Still, there was always an agent there to tell them what beats or points a wrestler had to hit upon when doing a promo. I actually think a lot of them don't need scripts but most of them don't have the clout to go off script. Those who do have clout usually have enough clout to help rewrite the promo that was written for them but they still need to clear what they say before they go out live. Did you ever see any of the leaked RAW scripts from recent years? The micromangement is insane.
On the one hand I get why. They are a publicly traded company and pre pandemic were doing two live shows a week. Vince doesn't want to risk one of them shooting from the hip and saying the wrong thing. On the other hand though, it has killed the creativity. The best promos from the past few years of WWE have been the rare few where some improv has actually happened.
Agreed about matches these days. It's so frustrating because in terms of technical ring talent, there has never been a more talented generation. But the storylines to make you care about the matches is not there and for some talents the psychology is not there.
That said if the storytelling is dogshit and the matches mean nothing what does your remaining audience want to see. Randy Orton plod through a boring WWE style match with rest holds and sensible psychology or some crazy spots and fast high flying moves. If it all means nothing and before and after the bell is dull as dish water then I guess the crazy stuff is at least a bit more interesting.
I think everyone here agrees. They need to go back to basics. Write interesting storylines and let the wrestlers actually be characters. The cool crazy shit some new performers can do is cool, but they need to limit that shit to once per match and actually also do some psychology. Do the cool crazy shit but target a limb etc. Make matches make sense.
On the AEW end... they need some structure and they need to not let four of their key performers be the bookers. Cody, Kenny and The Bucks both performing but also being directly involved in booking is a mess. Let folk who have run two hour weekly wrestling TV run the booking and production of the show.
And take Jericho off TV and tell him to hire a personal trainer and get in respectable shape. He doesn't need to look jacked or anything how he did 20 years ago. But if he's going to booked how he currently is he still needs to look like realistic athletic threat. If he isn't going to do that then book him as an out of shape over the hill legend who's going for one last dance.
Re: The Wrestling thread
I watched a Bruce Prichard interview/podcast about Kerry Von Erich last night, and it was really interesting. Pretty shocked that in the early 80's Vince was interested in three wrestlers to make his WWF franchise: Hulk Hogan, Dusty Rhodes (not Ric Flair like was rumored), and Kerry Von Erich. And he said Kerry was Vince's top choice because he had everything Vince wanted in a wrestler. For whatever reason, probably Hogan's following was bigger, merchandising opportunities, and Kerry's dad probably not being hip to it, and a pretty good business instinct, he went with Hogan. But he always wanted Kerry. He was actually one of the very few people who knew Kerry only had one foot after his accident (which is incredible as some close Von Erich family friends didn't even know) and Vince wanted to use it in a storyline and really hype it up in the media as it was gold PR. This tells me they must've been quietly communicating for years. Kerry was actually supposed to debut in the NWA but screwed them over when he no showed his first event and debuted in the WWF instead, then won the intercontinental championship pretty soon afterward. Vince apparently had big plans for Kerry, but unfortunately, the dude just had way too many problems and couldn't get his shit together. Looking back, Kerry was teamed up with the Ultimate Warrior a lot back when he was champ, and it's pretty clear that they were grooming him for something big.
Re: The Wrestling thread
I watched a Bruce Prichard interview/podcast about Kerry Von Erich last night, and it was really interesting. Pretty shocked that in the early 80's Vince was interested in three wrestlers to make his WWF franchise: Hulk Hogan, Dusty Rhodes (not Ric Flair like was rumored), and Kerry Von Erich. And he said Kerry was Vince's top choice because he had everything Vince wanted in a wrestler. For whatever reason, probably Hogan's following was bigger, merchandising opportunities, and Kerry's dad probably not being hip to it, and a pretty good business instinct, he went with Hogan. But he always wanted Kerry. He was actually one of the very few people who knew Kerry only had one foot after his accident (which is incredible as some close Von Erich family friends didn't even know) and Vince wanted to use it in a storyline and really hype it up in the media as it was gold PR. This tells me they must've been quietly communicating for years. Kerry was actually supposed to debut in the NWA but screwed them over when he no showed his first event and debuted in the WWF instead, then won the intercontinental championship pretty soon afterward. Vince apparently had big plans for Kerry, but unfortunately, the dude just had way too many problems and couldn't get his shit together. Looking back, Kerry was teamed up with the Ultimate Warrior a lot back when he was champ, and it's pretty clear that they were grooming him for something big.
Wanna know something else interesting? Despite vinces choice to go with hogan he clearly still had doubts.
For one, he went to great lengths to hide the fact Hogan was balding until there was no hiding it.
Re: The Wrestling thread
I listened to Jim Ross's account of the Kerry incident from the NWA's perspective, and he wasn't surprised because of Ole Anderson, who according to Jim's other interviews, was a massive fuckhead who continuously screwed the WCW/NWA with bad, petty, ego-driven decisions and was pretty much a huge asshole that no one wanted to deal with. He refused to push Brian Pillman because he was too small and cut Mark "the Undertaker" Callous because he was nothing "special."
I didn't know Butch Reed was supposed to win the intercontinental championship instead of Honky Tonk Man, but was fed up with the road schedule and no showed the event. Doom (Butch with Ron Simmons) was a great tag team in the NWA, so it's pretty bitter sweet.
Re: The Wrestling thread
I listened to Jim Ross's account of the Kerry incident from the NWA's perspective, and he wasn't surprised because of Ole Anderson, who according to Jim's other interviews, was a massive fuckhead who continuously screwed the WCW/NWA with bad, petty, ego-driven decisions and was pretty much a huge asshole that no one wanted to deal with. He refused to push Brian Pillman because he was too small and cut Mark "the Undertaker" Callous because he was nothing "special."
I didn't know Butch Reed was supposed to win the intercontinental championship instead of Honky Tonk Man, but was fed up with the road schedule and no showed the event. Doom (Butch with Ron Simmons) was a great tag team in the NWA, so it's pretty bitter sweet.
Speaking of Hogan's clout...you know how they decided on Honkey right?
Hogan found out Butch didn't show for the show and hand picked Honkey.
Re: The Wrestling thread
The Honkey reign is really something else...an even bigger anomaly in hindsight. It cluster fucked the mid-card and B show during a period when the roster was insanely strong.
Thanks to Honkeys reign, ALL of the feuds in 87-88 not in the tag team division had nothing on the line.
Ridiculous.
Vince let the WWF's popularity at the time cloud his judgement. Honkey is right....the B show tours with him at the top of the card were sellouts....but it would've sold out with anyone else at the top.
The IC title should've changed hands several times in 87-88.
Bigelow was red hot. If not for Savage, he likely gets a brief world title reign in Hogan's absence.
He needed the IC title or turn him heel. His momentum was about to hit a brick wall but then he left....to get squandered in the NWA.
I'll say it til I drop dead....WWF needed a TV title to elevate mid card feuds.
From 86-89 they needed Intercontinental tag titles.
NWA got this right....
World champ
Flair as champ allows both heel and babyface feuds.
US champ
Almost as important as the world title. Any red hot feud not including Flair is over this title.
TV title
Arn Anderson is the perfect TV champ. He used it as designed....guarantees one champ wrestles on TV every week.
National champ
Other than Tully and Dusty reigns, this belt gave the mid card something to fight over all the time.
World Tag Team champ
Always used for the hottest team at the moment.
National/US tag champs
For everyone else.
Kerry Von Erich.....
He didn't have the mic skills to be the top guy in either WWF or NWA.
