Chinese Whispers - The Secret History of the New Studio Album

sic.

Whatever can be said of Chinese Democracy, the man himself spoke the greatest truth of them all.

To say the making of this album has been an unbearably long and incomprehensible journey would be an understatement. - W. Axl Rose

The lofty goal of Chinese Whispers is to document this journey as well as possible with whatever factual information available. This has meant spending long hours going through various articles, message board posts and other tidbits to place every other comment into proper context; what year were the people interviewed involved, and how do their opinions correspond with the stage at which both the band and the album were at that point.

While it tries hard to provide answers, it does not attempt to serve as the absolute truth on all things GNR following the Use Your Illusion world tour. What it does offer, however, are interesting snapshots in time which illustrate Axl and his crew laboring over a myriad of songs with various producers, hoping to complete their work to a satisfying degree, only to find release plans foiled time and again for reasons that often remain undisclosed to this day.

It is a tale of madness, obsession and creative endeavor of gigantic proportions. While the light in which the core players are represented may not always be flattering towards them, one thing is certain: everyone involved tried very hard to make the best album possible, despite almost unsurmountable pressure from the record company, the music press and most importantly, the long-suffering fanbase.

At the end of the day, the music will speak for itself. However, as the story behind the music has no equal in the history of rock, Chinese Whispers will hopefully provide with some entertainment value while waiting for that Best Buy exclusive and Axl Rose's own, unabridged account of what truly happened.

This is not the truth.

This is the story as we know it so far.

Click any link for the events of the said year.

1993 1994 1995 1996
1997 1998 1999 2000

2001 2002 2003 2004
2005 2006 2007 2008

Randall Flagg

this is really awesome stuff, but the links for 2004-2007 are not working

supaplex

sic. you're sick. you're like a walking gnr encyclopedia.

thanks a lot for this.

sic.

Randall Flagg wrote:

this is really awesome stuff, but the links for 2004-2007 are not working

Make sure you're logged in when clicking the links. There's apparently a glitch which makes 04-07 inaccessible for guests.

supaplex wrote:

sic. you're sick. you're like a walking gnr encyclopedia.

It didn't happen overnight. The bulk of the research goes back for years, though I only got around to putting it all together with the recent revamp of Evo.

James and Will were ready to give it a home it needed; without them, this would've never happened.

supaplex

sic. wrote:

Randall Flagg wrote:
this is really awesome stuff, but the links for 2004-2007 are not working
Make sure you're logged in when clicking the links. There's apparently a glitch which makes 04-07 inaccessible for guests.

nope. it shows this message: Bad request. The link you followed is incorrect or outdated

might be because of the changing of the servers

sic. wrote:

supaplex wrote:
sic. you're sick. you're like a walking gnr encyclopedia.
It didn't happen overnight. The bulk of the research goes back for years, though I only got around to putting it all together with the recent revamp of Evo.
James and Will were ready to give it a home it needed; without them, this would've never happened.

i didn't say it happened overnight, only giving you props for all the work you've done. also not trying to take credit from other people. great job, once again.

bazgnr

I'm logged in, and still can't access the 04-07 links. That said, I've spent most of the day reading the previous years. What an amazing compilation of information. Thanks for all that!

Furbush

i'm only at 1999...
absolutely amazing...
anyone who said"why did it take 15 years?" NEEDS to read this...
thank you

Axlin16

sic is the fuckin' man when it comes to this.

Kudos

sic.

Will told me the 04-07 links have been fixed now.

It was a bug which never occured to us.

rose22

sic this is some great shit man. what a treat to read all this. thank you for all your hard work and knowledge.

2008 Intentions

Thanks man its a great article

deadsouth

You should have copyrighted the term "chinese whispers"...

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ … 106291.ece

strat0

yeah you should have...

James

Nothing wrong with The Times reading GNR Evolution......

the_real_jessica

Journalists don't work hard nowadays do they ?

I still wonder why it takes a school and a diploma.

All one needs is two fingers and the copy/paste in windows.

sic.

My thoughts exactly, Jess, and thank you for your words.

But you ain't seen nothing yet... wink

the_real_jessica

I am glad..

And proud.

And so much and words couldn't describe this month.

November without the rain.

I'm still here, maybe not often, but i'm always somewhere in the shadows.

I wouldn't have missed thE day.

sic.

2008 added.

I'm counting on the fact that Ax won't pull an 11th hour surprise on me. lol

Will

sic wrote:

[..] In mid-December, Classic Rock published an abridged version of Chinese Whispers as a 20-page supplemental booklet for their January 2009 issue. The chronicle which had started as a collection of quotes, mostly from printed sources, had succesfully made the transition to the original medium, becoming a Chinese Democracy article by its own right.

A great collectors item for everyone who spent time at GNRevolution whilst waiting for Chinese Democracy cool

Neemo

i encourage all our new members to check this out if you havent already

julia (babydolls)

Sic, thank you! this section rocks - work be damned, am thoroughly enjoying browsing through this. some incredibly detailed hard work here. thanks again x

sp1at

It is a great read because it truly reflects the complexities behind the making of CD.

LTS

I'm a sucker for convenience and I hate staring at my computer, any chance Chinese Whispers can be put into a single .pdf file for me to either print or put on my iphone?

Stepvhen

^^ How about I just write your Article for you too? I'm guessing Magazine.
Any publication I've heard?

rose22

LTS wrote:

I'm a sucker for convenience and I hate staring at my computer, any chance Chinese Whispers can be put into a single .pdf file for me to either print or put on my iphone?

just read it ya bum. everyone on this board has read it. i read it and have to say it was well worth it. shit, i read it twice.

Axl S

Lay off the guy it's not a ridiculous request. Pretty easy to do.

rose22

it's called a joke. honestly he can read and get enjoyment from it. or you could create a file for him.:)

Aussie

LTS wrote:

I'm a sucker for convenience and I hate staring at my computer, any chance Chinese Whispers can be put into a single .pdf file for me to either print or put on my iphone?

Here you go mate:

http://www.4shared.com/document/Zc4DbDz … h2008.html

Stepvhen

Aussie wrote:

LTS wrote:
I'm a sucker for convenience and I hate staring at my computer, any chance Chinese Whispers can be put into a single .pdf file for me to either print or put on my iphone?
Here you go mate:
http://www.4shared.com/document/Zc4DbDz … h2008.html

144 downloads... in a month??
I think this just became the unofficial EPK for the Chinese Democracy saga

LTS

that's awesome. Dang, Buckethead sure is a strange dude... I saw a video of the 2001 Rock In rio and he had glowing eyes under his mask when they did November Rain. Earlier he danced and played around with nunchucks (however you spell them)

LTS

Who else absolutely loved this? I think it would be awesome if it was expanded from 2008- present

DCK

This has a good basic for a book to tell u the truth.

Stepvhen

This represents the single biggest contribution to the GNR fan community. In a perfect world this history would have been bundled with CD when it came out. It marks just how special that album is.

apex-twin

Aussie wrote:

LTS wrote:
I'm a sucker for convenience and I hate staring at my computer, any chance Chinese Whispers can be put into a single .pdf file for me to either print or put on my iphone?
Here you go mate:
http://www.4shared.com/document/Zc4DbDz … h2008.html

Of course you mean this

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8432795/Chine … -Democracy

jamester

LTS wrote:

Who else absolutely loved this? I think it would be awesome if it was expanded from 2008- present

I agree. time is flying by and with twitter and facebook ron and dj are talking. The band is more in touch with the fans. I think the time between cd release till - well whatevers next happens would be the just as interesting.

axl8302

Really great work, well done!

One thing, this bit makes it sound as though Michael Bland was later hired:

"It took almost a decade, but Axl did eventually hire the black dude."

Also, Frank Ferrer (whom I assume you are referring to) isn't black - he's Cuban.

misterID

tbh, a lot of guys/women recognize that they're black, despite being either Puerto Rican, Brazilian, Cuban, especially if they're raised in America, like Zoe Saldana...

But you're correct, there are some who do not like being called black. I don't think Frank minds. He's from Brooklyn.

DCK

I've yet to meet a black person. They all seem brownish in color to me, just like I'm not really white. I'm more pink...if you ask my wife.

johndivney

wtf

DCK

Just saw this and I must have well drunk when I wrote it. Goddamnit.

Anyway, this thing...as an author. It just reeks of a fucking fantastic fanbased book about this era of GNR.

I can't seem to find a doc or pdf download that works though, anyone willing to help?

cassette tape hiss

this is fucking insane. thankyou

sp1at

For old time sake; from Blabbermouth;

The following report was issued by Gigger at Sp1at.com:

------------------------------------------

After a week of investigating Sp1at.com can exclusively reveal that the unreleased GUNS N' ROSES song "This I Love" was intended to feature in the 1998 film "What Dreams May Come".

Sp1at was originally alerted to the connection between Axl Rose and the film when Dave Dominguez, a producer on the "Chinese Democracy" album in the late '90s, told Sp1at that the song was intended for "some Robin Williams film." Sp1at's intrepid reporter followed this up and soon contacted the office of Dawn Soler, the musical supervisor for the film "What Dreams May Come".

Speaking exclusively to Sp1at on the subject, Dawn Soler said, "Oh, boy, that was a long time ago," and admitted she was unable to recollect how the oppourtunity to work with Axl Rose came along in the first place. She did assure Sp1at that Axl was "really into the film" and even suggested that he "wrote the song for it." However, Sp1at does not believe this to be the case as the song was originally mentioned in 1994 by Axl Rose himself when he described "This I Love" as "the heaviest thing I've ever done." Fans of the band have often speculated that the song was about Dylan, the son of Axl's ex-girlfriend Stephanie Seymour.

As it turned out, the song did not make the final cut of the film, although Dawn Soler insists it was not down to her. She said, "The director was a pill and didn't get how cool it would be." Sp1at has contacted the agent of Vincent Ward, the "pill" of a director, on the issue but they have yet to reply.

Sp1at went back to Dominguez to see if he had any further comments on the song and he went on to say that "it was definitely a love song...very heartfelt, it would have fit perfectly with 'What Dreams May Come'," before adding that the song was "five minutes or more" in length.

It is unlikely that the song remains in the same form as it did in 1998. Howard Karp, who worked on the song in 2000, told Sp1at that it was just him and Axl in the studio at the time and that the song was a "simple, piano ballad." It is also known that Bryan "Brain" Mantia has recorded on the song since joining the band in 2001.

Whether we'll ever get to hear the song "This I Love" is debateable. GUNS N' ROSES' "Chinese Democracy" album has been in the works for around seven years but is at present set for a "mid-year release," according to an industry source. However had Mr. Ward followed the advice of Dawn Soler, then "This I Love" would be a seven-year-old track rather than another myth in the world of GUNS N' ROSES.

------------------------------------------------------------

Axlin16

I think someone found an excerpt which sounded alot like an early rough demo instrumental of This I Love being played as an intro to November Rain during one of the 1992 shows (I think Seattle).

Whether it was an instrumental diddy that Axl was working on and the lyrics turned into a ballad towards the Seymours or not, the song was VERY obvious a painful unrequited love song towards his lost family, and not a solely sculpted 'Main Theme' for "What Dreams May Come".

Will

Unstickied as Whispers has been promoted to the main menu for easier access. You can also find a permanent link on the Chinese Democracy page in the GNR Discography.

monkeychow

Every time I re-look at this I'm amazed at the effort and skill in it. Congrats.

Someone should compile a similar work for Chinese 2 - there's still the odd reference to unheard music in interviews and so on.

Furbush

Also... Some of the cool pictures are gone.

Such as the bald, bearded Axl from... I think '98... '96?

But, yeahhh... Flipping through this again, I'm still in awe. And a Chinese 2 dossier is definitely needed.

emcitymisfit

Furbush wrote:

Also... Some of the cool pictures are gone.
Such as the bald, bearded Axl from... I think '98... '96?
But, yeahhh... Flipping through this again, I'm still in awe. And a Chinese 2 dossier is definitely needed.

This one?

apex-twin

...Or this one?

One more and we'll have a line

Furbush

apex-twin wrote:

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/4598/axl1996zl2.jpg
...Or this one?

One more and we'll have a line

Bingo...

Thanks, bro.

Sky Dog

the arizona jail picture is fuckin classic....first pic to emerge during that time and it is a mugshot...you can't make this shit up!

RaZor

This is a great article. I’ve been obsessing over GNR and CD lately, surfing the web quite a bit, and this is by far the best thing I’ve come across. Thanks much.

zombux

I just finished reading this monster and I'm really astonished. great work! maybe I just lack some more information about Robin rejoining GNR before 2001 shows, and maybe a few lines about Axl doing a DJ in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas. cool though!

(and thanks to James Lofton for inviting me here!)

supaplex

zombux wrote:

I just finished reading this monster and I'm really astonished. great work! maybe I just lack some more information about Robin rejoining GNR before 2001 shows, and maybe a few lines about Axl doing a DJ in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas. cool though!
(and thanks to James Lofton for inviting me here!)

Welcome to the forum!
I remember you had the paradise city tracker way back when i was collecting gnr dvd's.
Nice to see you here!

zombux

great to see some old buddies again!
well, I'm around again, a bit, after pretty much giving up during 2011-2015. not saying that this "reunion" makes me too excited, as the circumstances are really weird, no word from band members at all, little promotion, Axl being totally silent for the last couple of years... still interested in ChiDem sessions songs (no matter if from 1996 or 2014), old ChiDem mixes (the Beavan mixes seem to be THE holy grail, but also Baker sessions sound interesting), Vegas 2001 video footages...

I wonder if someday, somebody compiles "Chinese whispers #2" about the years that followed. this is amazing work, really. I knew much of this before, but this is the first time I read names of session guys like Sid Riggs, the first time I learned about Fortus almost in instead of Bucket, and I laughed so hard at that Bucket & hatchet story.
hey, this is a really comprehensive stuff. as I noted above, I miss just a tiny bits that just come to my mind now, but almost everything is there. amazing, amazing!

if you guys are looking for some bootleg, let me know, I might upload it for you, my collection is still quite... big

James

Great to see you here zombux! My favorite non Evo(until now wink ) GNR forum member and I'm not just saying that.

Yes Chinese Whispers is amazing. Its basically required reading for any GNR fans of the CD era and I have read it multiple times over the years since I forget a lot of things.

Yeah the fact that Fortus almost got in the band and we'd never have had Bucket is frightening to say the least.

zombux

yea, yea. I like Fortus, he's a skilled guitarist. but really, one can't compare him with a beast like Bucket or Bumble. different league. I like how he ended up in GNR anyway, he's cool, excellent choice for rhytm guitar and occasional "traditional" solos. but as you just said, Bucket is a trademark of ChiDem era. without all those wacky solos, it would be possibly just a traditional rock album, albeit still quite experimental. Bucket was the neccessary spice, and Bumble kept the legacy well and added his factor, also quite unique. all this was a great blend. it's just a shame that Axl never decided to release multiple ChiDem versions. it would be really astonishing to hear the early Slash/Duff demos, then those crazy sessions that followed, then 1999 pre-Bucket versions, then Bucket stuff... we kind of got only the Bumble/Frank mixes, which are really good, but seem a bit... overcooked, if you feel what I say. I really wonder what was happening next. possibly some occasional work at the yet-unreleased songs, with Ashba bringing new ideas, Fortus probably as well, and Bumble and Tommy slowly losing interest. what a crazy history!

James

If you have Boston 2002 on hand...I'll take it. I used to have most of that stuff years ago. Now when I want to hear something from that show...just listen to one of the CD songs on youtube.

Definitely too many cooks in the Chinese kitchen. Instead of fried prawns we got em fried, steamed, boiled, baked, BBQ'd, mashed, and poached.

zombux

sure, Boston 2002 is no problem. loved Bucket's interpretation of Nightrain, he nailed it!
there are multiple versions though.
DVDs existing - at least 3 sources (center shot, screen shot, 3cam mix, the 3rd source appears to be right shot).
audio - at least 3 audience sources, soundboard version and at least 1 matrix mix of them (for your listening pleasure, the soundboard or matrix mix would be most suitable).
choose which ones you're interested in. I'll probably upload audio to the download section here, DVD might be better on dimeadozen or probably chinesedemocracy.com tracker, if you guys are there.

polluxlm

How many soundboards are there for the 02 tour? Think only a few got leaked.

zombux

08/18 Osaka (intro + 5 songs only, Axl's monitor mix)

11/08 Tacoma (almost complete),
11/11 Nampa (up to Rocket Queen),
11/22 Pittsburgh (almost complete),
11/24 Cleveland (up to November Rain)
11/25 Columbus (up to Madagascar)
12/02 Boston (complete)

Tacoma, Nampa and Cleveland have been stolen from the mixing desk during Philadelphia riot, not sure how the others surfaced.

so that's six SBD + one IEM, if I'm not missing some more.

James

08/18 Osaka (intro + 5 songs only, Axl's monitor mix)

I had this many years ago and would laugh at how terrible he sounds on Riad. Would play it for friends who would also laugh. Funny how it wound up being one of my favorite songs once it leaked. Hell the vocals probably aren't even as bad as I remember. I think The Blues from this show(or is it Tokyo) is killer. Same with CD. God I loved the title track. Blew me away first time I heard it. Only a handful of boots where CD doesn't sound very good.

Definitely Boston soundboard. I don't know if that's what I had or one of the others. Way back then I joined the forums, offered to trade a mint, sealed copy of GNR Lies LP for boots of every single 01-02 show on CD. Someone took the bait instantly.

Boston and either Osaka/Tokyo were my favorites....along with HOB/Rio.

zombux

Boston is the best one, in my opinion. will upload it to the Download section. edit: it's there! smile
my first NewGNR boots were probably some random songs from Limewire. if I remember correctly, it was Nightrain from Leeds 2002, Chinese Democracy from Vegas 2001 (magic performance with a speech!) and a few seconds video from The Blues RIR3.
I was kind of in doubt, what the hell are they doing. the only thing I knew by that time is, that the old band somehow folded (still remember that first shock when I first connected to the internet, somehow ended at snakepit.org and really really shocked when read all those solo projects and GNR nowhere to be found, it was in 1999 if I'm correct) and they now have some guys from NIN playing. I was like... OK that could be cool, I knew NIN from Quake video game. had no idea who or what is "Buckethead".
but that Leeds solo was so fresh that I said hey, this is not bad, I'll see what I can get. then I got complete Osaka 2002 somehow (the audience only, not IEM) and then I joined NewGNR DC++ hub and downloaded my first DVD, it was RIR3 by that time. and of course I connected to some fan forums, to find out where the truth really is.
well, and here I am

James

I also first heard the title track from the HOB show. Mind instantly blown. OMG did not impress me much but he had me sold 100% on his project after hearing CD. I'd sell my soul to hear a studio version of that version of the title track. THAT is Chinese Democracy. The minor changes to it a year later(Boston the best) is kick ass as well but from 2006 and beyond....its barely even the same song. The Blues suffered an even worse fate. I think it was improved in 2002 from its 01 version but in 06....holy hell....neutered beyond recognition. I bet Finck really loathed the change. Madagascar reached its apex in Rio.

I wish a bootleg audio or video of The Joint show would leak. At least the title track.

One thing that sucks is we almost got to hear Oklahoma/Berlin at HOB. It was an alternate. It not being performed is what led to the years long "Is Riad really Oklahoma? debate.....Riad was performed in its place.

zombux

I can't agree 100% with the title track. in fact, I prefer the 2007 leak. it has no Ron's additions and sounds more raw and punchy. yeah, I like Ron's additions, loved them when they played the track live, back in 2006 and these tiny licks got there, I was psyched! but in the final mix, they sound a bit... I don't know... like the mix diluted the power of the track and kind of replaced it with these licks, not added to it. which is a shame. not even talking about the intro, that should be a SEPARATE track. it's now stupid to say "hey casual dude, you wanna listen to a great recent GNR song? let me play you a track... oh but please skip the first minute, OK? the song itself only starts after it."

James

Just looked at the Joint set lists. this needs to surface....mainly for my love of the title track in 01-02 plus more versions of Silkworms to hear. This is the last time it was ever performed. Oddities at these shows like Tommy singing OMG.

12.29.01 - The Joint, Hard Rock Hotel, Las Vegas, NV
attendance: 1,400
set: Welcome To The Jungle, It's So Easy, Mr. Brownstone, Live And Let Die, Guitar Solo [Buckethead], Oh My God, Think About You, You Could Be Mine, Sweet Child O' Mine, Knockin' On Heaven's Door, Out Ta Get Me, Madagascar, Rocket Queen, November Rain, Chinese Democracy, The Blues, Acoustic Guitar Solo [Buckethead], Patience, Silkworms, My Michelle, Paradise City

notes: A very odd and entertaining show. Unlike the new band’s first show together [1.1.01], GN’R hit the stage early - around 10:52 p.m. and play ‘till about 1 a.m. Axl began the show wearing a #12 Oakland Raiders Rich Gannon jersey. During ‘Welcome To The Jungle,’ Axl gives the finger to some people in the crowd. There were many sound problems early on in the show, with Axl often leaving the stage while the band continued to play. Tommy sang almost all of ‘Oh My God.’ Robin also threw his guitar down during ‘Oh My God,’ obviously enraged by the problems. Axl’s odd presence continued on for the rest of the night, probably since he wasn’t comfortable with his sound-piece. Later on in the show he would yell at his sound guy. Buckethead’s first guitar solo is played pretty much to cover up for the sound difficulties. He played parts of the ‘Star Wars Theme’ and the ‘Pirates Of The Caribbean Theme.’ After ‘Rocket Queen,’ Axl told the crowd about the band’s current status. He talked about how these shows in Vegas were the first ones he wanted to play since the UYI tour. He nonchalantly criticized Doug Goldstein for booking the European 2001 tour without his knowledge, leading Axl to find out about it through the internet! He went on to promise that the band would eventually deliver on the album. All the songs were played straight-through – there was no encore break. The most astonishing thing is that Axl worked through the night’s problems and didn’t let the crowd down by ending the show early.

--

12.31.01 - The Joint, Hard Rock Hotel, Las Vegas, NV
attendance: 1,400
set: Welcome To The Jungle, It's So Easy, Mr. Brownstone, Live And Let Die, Oh My God, Think About You, You Could Be Mine, Sweet Child O' Mine, Knockin' On Heaven's Door, Madagascar, November Rain, Out Ta Get Me, Guitar Solo [Buckethead], Rocket Queen, Chinese Democracy, Acoustic Guitar Solo [Buckethead], Patience, The Blues, Silkworms, My Michelle, Nightrain
encore: Paradise City

notes: Another New Year’s gig in Vegas – GN’R hit the stage around 11:05 p.m. and plays ‘till about 1:15 a.m. The band is in a much more relaxed mood, most likely due to the lack of sound difficulties. Early in the show Axl wore a #44 Florida St. Seminoles football jersey. This show definitely had a harder edge to it – the band wanted to prove that the 12.29 show was a fluke. Everyone was on fire – Axl hitting all his vocals and both lead guitarists shredding every note! One of the night’s highlights was a flawless performance of ‘Oh My God’ – something that hadn’t been pulled off in the band’s previous three gigs. Often during the show Axl would run off to the side of the stage when he wasn’t singing – he was really enjoying watching the band nail every song! At 11:54 p.m. – 6 minutes before the new year – Earl [Axl’s bodyguard] notified Axl that it was close to midnight – the band then launched into an amazing version of ‘Madagascar.’ The song finished exactly at midnight at which point the stage screens showed the Vegas strip live. Confetti was then shot off into the crowd for a few minutes and Axl started to play piano, which eventually led into ‘November Rain.’ During Buckethead’s guitar solo, he played parts of the ‘Star Wars Theme,’ a little of ‘Somewhere Over The Rainbow’ and also a little of Van Halen’s ‘Eruption.’ After the solo, Axl came onstage and joked, “I think Darth is in the house tonight!” After ‘My Michelle,’ Axl thanked the crowd for coming. Again he mentioned that these Vegas shows were the first gigs he wanted to play in a very long time. At this point a fan in the crowd – you know who you are Mark Roulley – threw a handmade towel onto the stage that said “Celebrity Deathmatch was fixed!” Axl got a huge laugh out of this, as did Tommy. At the end of ‘Paradise City,’ Axl screamed, “TWO-THOUSAND-FUCKIN’-TWO! LAS VEGAS, NEVADA, GOOD… FUCKIN’… NIGHT!!!”

http://www.gnrontour.com/

These shows need to surface badly....I want that "amazing" version of Madagascar, "flawless" OMG, and Tommy doing OMG while the band is pissed by the sound problems.

James

I can't agree 100% with the title track. in fact, I prefer the 2007 leak. it has no Ron's additions and sounds more raw and punchy. yeah, I like Ron's additions, loved them when they played the track live, back in 2006 and these tiny licks got there, I was psyched! but in the final mix, they sound a bit... I don't know... like the mix diluted the power of the track and kind of replaced it with these licks, not added to it. which is a shame. not even talking about the intro, that should be a SEPARATE track. it's now stupid to say "hey casual dude, you wanna listen to a great recent GNR song? let me play you a track... oh but please skip the first minute, OK? the song itself only starts after it."

Oh I loved the leak too. But it also has been diluted from its previous versions....just like you mention Ron doing to it on the final version. I like his additions to the title track as well...just not sure if they were necessary.

The intro, whether anyone likes it or not...definitely wasn't needed. A channel changer for sure.

That HOB version has a vibe that no other version(live, leak, or finished) ever had. This killer, simple, to the point song was simply fucked with way too many times on its journey to release.

From this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P9qTtiH8uA

To this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faSBzYRnFdk

polluxlm

I had forgot those shows even existed. Vegas, Rio, then the 02 tour was how I remember it. But of course they did those second Vegas shows in between.

That new years eve show is the real peach. Small venue, band had already played a few shows and no sound problems. Axl hadn't hit 40 yet, so possibly his voice was in good shape too.

zombux

aye, aye. those 2 shows are like secret gems. everyone knows RIR3, many people knows "Vegas show", but in fact there were 3 Vegas shows indeed. and all of them seem to be a holy grail of Bucket era. we're extremely lucky to have complete 01/01 audio footage, that was pure magic. not a clip from the other 2 shows though. and yes, I'd probably sell my soul for DVDs from these 3 shows

James

I had forgot those shows even existed. Vegas, Rio, then the 02 tour was how I remember it. But of course they did those second Vegas shows in between.

Yeah these two shows have almost been lost to history....mainly due to the fact no audio/video surfaced and the fact the previous show(Rio)is known on a grand scale and the notorious 2002 tour fiasco which ended that version of the band. Had a few hardcore fans not attended, we'd know nothing about these shows other than the dates.

we're extremely lucky to have complete 01/01 audio footage, that was pure magic. not a clip from the other 2 shows though. and yes, I'd probably sell my soul for DVDs from these 3 shows

Lucky indeed. One person bootlegged it.

Yes....the 01/01 show on DVD would've been killer and deserved its release. They should be ashamed of pulling it at the last second....hindsight makes me wonder if legal issues with Slash caused them to pull the plug on its release.

zombux

Fernando actually hinted its existence in aug 2015, I think it was on mygnrforum. when asked about it, he said something like "that was long ago, I might check the vault for it" and that was it.

James

We know it exists. It was scheduled for release way back then but was pulled at the last minute. There were always rumors it was being hoarded by a select few for years but no one has ever come across it. Its unlikely it ever made it into a hoarder's hands.

The fact he would even mention it this late in the game is good news. There's little chance of it ever being released but at least they didn't forget its existence.

What IS being hoarded from that era is the 2002 VMA rehearsals. When the guy couldn't get what he wanted for it in 2006(songs and money), he vanished and hasn't been seen since.

There's basically zero interest in those rehearsals anyways but it would be cool to see.

zombux

agreed, that stuff could be interesting. only a short sample of it exits.
about Vegas DVD, I read somewhere that it indeed was ready for release, but scrapped at the last minute and subsequently destroyed (not sure how legit this information was, of course)
edit: and f**k me, I can't find that Fernando's response at mygnrforum now. I sent him PM at HTGTH, just reminding this, he of course never replied, and now the post seems to be gone. or I'm extremely stupid at searching. but damn, I found it already before and quite quickly. strange. well, I guess this is beating a dead horse anyway.

James

It was probably deleted. Probably realized he said too much and didn't want a bunch of hardcore fans of that lineup asking about it.

Its about Axl, Slash, and Duff now.

It would've been a killer release. Fans could have got used to that lineup before the next tour started.

Smoking Guns

I was at the 12/29/01 Vegas show in the front row. Was an awesome show!! Buckethead was the man!

bigbri

Smoking Guns wrote:

Buckethead was the man!

Is that a question?!

OF COURSE he was the man! bucket

Smoking Guns

bigbri wrote:

Smoking Guns wrote:
Buckethead was the man!
Is that a question?!
OF COURSE he was the man!

Haha I hit the question mark by accident. He played an amazing acoustic solo prior to patience that left me floored.

elevendayempire

James Lofton wrote:

What IS being hoarded from that era is the 2002 VMA rehearsals. When the guy couldn't get what he wanted for it in 2006(songs and money), he vanished and hasn't been seen since.
There's basically zero interest in those rehearsals anyways but it would be cool to see.

Yeah, they're an interesting curio at best. What's frustrating is knowing that there's material in circulation among hoarders (Silkworms, TIL remix, Checkmate etc) that's never going to see the light of day. The Bucket-era band is being brushed under the carpet with the "regrouping", just as the UYI-era band was airbrushed from history when Axl was pushing the Chinese Democracy line-up(s). Great news if you want remastered classic-era albums and live DVDs – terrible news if you held out faint hopes of one day hearing the Chinese Democracy demos in some sort of official form (a vault-purging box set). The few remaining demos are the only chance we'll have to hear what Bucket, Finck and Axl were cooking up in the studio; I'd give my eye teeth to hear the AFD re-recording from 1999.

I wouldn't want, say, a release of the Brian May Atlas Shrugged demo to jeopardise the release of new material, obviously – if Axl's working on a version with Slash, we don't want a repeat of the Skwerl situation. But some day it'd be nice to hear how Chinese Democracy evolved over the years.

Will

Is their a landfill out in the desert with thousands of Vegas 01/01 DVDs alongside copies of ET on the Atari They managed to excavate those Atari cartridges after 30+ years so let's get researching and see where the discs would have been dumped big_smile

Dadud

just found this. Dan Ryckert of Giant bomb/game informer fame snuck into E3 2008, and asked a dude from harmonix about gnr. its where the 4 albums/VMAs rumor came from. Dans on giant bombs friday stream talking about the whole experience now.

polluxlm

I remember. Forums went wild about that for a while.

What is he saying now?

lance

Sic you did a amazing job with this thank you so much it was a great read.

zombux

apex-twin wrote:

Aussie wrote:
LTS wrote:
I'm a sucker for convenience and I hate staring at my computer, any chance Chinese Whispers can be put into a single .pdf file for me to either print or put on my iphone?
Here you go mate:
http://www.4shared.com/document/Zc4DbDz … h2008.html
Of course you mean this
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8432795/Chine … -Democracy

guys, is there some way to have the PDF? I don't want to give my credit card number to Scribd, and if I'm not wrong, their version ends with 2007 anyway.
thanks! smile

esoterica

This bump reminded me how much I want that House of Blues DVD.

PM out Zombux

esoterica

Axl's appearance in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has always seemed strange to me.

Rockstar Games released the game in October 2004. They typically record the Radio DJ's late on in the process after the game is near finished and they've secured the rights to the songs used in the soundtrack. At earliest, I'd say they'd do this around July 2004.

Even if Chinese Democracy were released, none of it would be promoted in the game, and Axl's appearance would either be just for fun or re-establishing him and Jungle to a new audience. He was spending a lot of time in NYC during this period, so it's possible he met the Houser brothers there, and it snowballed, but one wonders how exactly it came to pass.

Contraband came out in June 2004. If Axl got feet about releasing CD because of that, he did so after September 2004 and long after he had already appeared as DJ.

Tommy wrote:

But also I wanted to hear the things I hadn't heard yet. Some of the stuff had been done a while ago and hadn't changed much; I didn't really bother with that.

I wonder what Tommy was referring to here as most of what we've heard really hasn't changed much.

mitchejw

DCK wrote:

I've yet to meet a black person. They all seem brownish in color to me, just like I'm not really white. I'm more pink...if you ask my wife.

Thought I'd bring this back and remind everyone of a good knee slapper...love the randomness

johndivney

Incidentally, Stinson says there's a wealth of recordings Guns N' Roses made during his tenure that have yet to be released. "There's some stuff with lyrics, some without," he says. "We did a lot of stuff that was supposed to be on Chinese Democracy – the record was meant to be more than one disc, but after spending so much time on it we just had to put an end to it. There's also stuff that was held over from [the original lineup] before they all disbanded, so there's some stuff that should someday see the light of day."

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/featu … nr-w458836

johndivney

"Light of day"

esoterica

I wonder what he meant by "put an end to it". There are a lot of ways to interpret that.

It's hardly fresh analysis to state that Chinese Democracy was the leaks record but I've always felt that Azoff would release the most conservative material possible and do his best to stroke Axl's ego and put him in positions to succeed. This would mean holding the wilder / experimental stuff off and pushing back and Old GN'R stuff, i.e. Jackie Chan, for his future harvest once he got the Chinese Democracy material out of the vault and the AFD5 re-united.

We know that the Bumble/Ashba era band were working on Oh My God and Silkworms. I think those are underrated tracks but that they dumbed them down with the revisions. It makes sense to stop repainting and reworking 10 year old songs, which could easily fit within Tommy's comments.

I think there are compelling arguments to the remaining Chinese Democracy mythos being just that - a myth.

That said, I do wonder about the Beltrami tracks, as they were touted as the best of the (new) bunch and The General intro was played as early as 2002, which could suggest it was a pivotal set piece for the project.

shutout52

I just sat down and read this for the first time, mostly since I didn't know it existed.

Jesus Rollerblading Christ. Well done.

Is there any chance we'll see a Vol. II that covers everything from the album's release on up to the reunion and/or follow-up album? That seems like it could almost be as much of a roller coaster as this whole thing is. And for my own selfish interests, it would cover the years that I was out of the loop on all things GNR so I could see what all I missed.

James

shutout52 wrote:

Is there any chance we'll see a Vol. II that covers everything from the album's release on up to the reunion and/or follow-up album?

I can't speak for sic obviously but it's highly unlikely.

It would be a massive undertaking and there's just not much meat to the story.

Much more interesting would've been the documenting of the UYI saga titled 'Auditory Illusions' that was considered 10-11 years ago but that never really got off the ground. As we discussed then, the fact a lot of the 89-91 info was never properly archived and some of those magazine interviews were fictional would make a mess of the whole thing.

That seems like it could almost be as much of a roller coaster as this whole thing is.

Off and on touring with DJ Ashba, some remixes, and a handful of mentions about a follow-up album that had a less than zero chance of coming out is not a very exciting roller coaster. tongue

PotatoSalad

Do we know for sure that Stay Of Execution was the title of the follow up album or is that mere speculation?

This topic is one of many reasons this is the best GNR forum.

James

PotatoSalad wrote:

Do we know for sure that Stay Of Execution was the title of the follow up album or is that mere speculation?
This topic is one of many reasons this is the best GNR forum.

We found out recently that the title of the second album was originally going to be P.R.L., a fact mentioned but buried in a mistranslation of a 2001-02 article.

It's why the fan base collectively shit its pants when seeing PRL listed on those Village discs.

Stay of Execution was something GNR trademarked in 2014(?) but let it expire with no fanfare or reasoning behind it.

It was assumed to be the title of CD II but may have been something else entirely.....

Cerulean wind

Always.

This is the jewel of all the GNR websites out there.

Amazing read.

Albertsmithpslab

*Banned*

gavgnr

Albertsmithpslab wrote:

Banned

What’s this buddy? Links not working

Neemo

gavgnr wrote:

Albertsmithpslab wrote:
Banned
What’s this buddy? Links not working

Spam

ClaudeF

James wrote:

We found out recently that the title of the second album was originally going to be P.R.L., a fact mentioned but buried in a mistranslation of a 2001-02 article.

Wow, I had not realized that, James. What article was it? Is there a scan someplace? Really interesting discovery.

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