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Re: Doug Goldstein Letter to Axl
I think this exerpt from an old interview says it all to me. Here Axl is discussing Izzy's departure and his move to being the top dog in the band.
MUSICIAN: Does that take something out of the band? It seems as if Guns N' Roses has gone from being a shared vision to being your vision. Is that fair?
AXL:
"Yeah, it's somewhat fair. That's definitely the case with Izzy. Izzy wanted the financial rewards and the power rewards of my vision. Izzy's vision was much smaller. The other guys in the band just thought I was crazy. In order to make certain things happen, certain people had to think certain ideas were completely their own. I definitely knew what I wanted. I didn't know quite how to get there. And sometimes the only way to have everybody going the same place is to allow them to think that they're the ones who thought of it. It's not so much that way anymore and it's been real difficult to uncover that reality. It's been hard for people to accept. But it has been a basic reality of Guns N' Roses since the beginning. It just wasn't seen. Because I wasn't someone who had all the answers and all the plans, I just had a vision. I wasn't necessarily someone that people wanted to follow blindly and say, "He's got the plan, let's go." I've finally earned respect from Duff and Slash that wasn't necessarily fully there before. And Slash and I, more than anyone else, are very much a team."
The term "the power rewards of my vision" never left me after I read it. Axl saw GNR as the realisation of his vision which he felt gave him the right to all of the power; I bet Doug really talked that shit up too. I think Axl believed that just having the "vision" was enough, he admits himself above that he couldn't plan how to execute the vision. I bet Doug promised him he'd take care of that part, This tee'd up the exit of Duff and Slash as they (rightly) wanted a say in how the band evolved.
Doug's, creepy crawling letter shows me just what kind of a man he is... He was told by Axl he had replaced Izzy and I bet he figured he'd replace Slash & Duff while he was at it. Axl was so busy with his "art" and his "visions" that he was happy to let this man do the dirty work to enure the "visions" became reality. This would explain Slash's very public loathing of Doug.
Axl bought Doug's BS and ended up with a monster legacy that he couldn't carry alone.
That's a jaw dropper.
Re: Doug Goldstein Letter to Axl
faldor wrote:At this point though, it's way too late to turn back. He's stuck with what has been built up the last decade plus and he has to deal with it.
I don't think he is. He could probably still have some Slash/Loaded level success if he announced that he is no longer continuing this version of Guns N' Roses and is gonna continue performing and releasing material as a solo artist.
I think he's pissed off too many people along the way and they've given up on him. And I'm more talking about casual ROCK fans, not necessarily GNR fans. GNR fans MAY be more forgiving, but rock fans who have hated him for some time now won't be won over so easily.
Re: Doug Goldstein Letter to Axl
Common sense, Ali. You know, that something other people use. Believe me, nobody on Earth would sign over a million dollar worth property for nothing, just to see Axl smile. Except you, maybe.
I have common sense, but I think the problem is your definition of common sense is tantamount to presumptions that suit your pre-existing notions of how this situation unfolded. You say Axl surely knew that dirty tricks were used by Big FD to get Slash/Duff to sign over the name. Unless there is some recording or paper trail where he gives explicit instructions to try and coerce Slash/Duff into signing over the name, or he was actually in the room when it happened (which we know is not the case), then you have bases to say he SURELY knew. Is it possible he knew? It's possible. Is it a certainty as you claim? Absolutely not. IMO, that is a more reasoned assessment than what you stated.
Ali
Re: Doug Goldstein Letter to Axl
Mikkamakka wrote:Common sense, Ali. You know, that something other people use. Believe me, nobody on Earth would sign over a million dollar worth property for nothing, just to see Axl smile. Except you, maybe.
I have common sense, but I think the problem is your definition of common sense is tantamount to presumptions that suit your pre-existing notions of how this situation unfolded. You say Axl surely knew that dirty tricks were used by Big FD to get Slash/Duff to sign over the name. Unless there is some recording or paper trail where he gives explicit instructions to try and coerce Slash/Duff into signing over the name, or he was actually in the room when it happened (which we know is not the case), then you have bases to say he SURELY knew. Is it possible he knew? It's possible. Is it a certainty as you claim? Absolutely not. IMO, that is a more reasoned assessment than what you stated.
Ali
Does it matter if he knew? He clearly had no issues invoking the clause.
Re: Doug Goldstein Letter to Axl
Mikkamakka wrote:Common sense, Ali. You know, that something other people use. Believe me, nobody on Earth would sign over a million dollar worth property for nothing, just to see Axl smile. Except you, maybe.
I have common sense, but I think the problem is your definition of common sense is tantamount to presumptions that suit your pre-existing notions of how this situation unfolded. You say Axl surely knew that dirty tricks were used by Big FD to get Slash/Duff to sign over the name. Unless there is some recording or paper trail where he gives explicit instructions to try and coerce Slash/Duff into signing over the name, or he was actually in the room when it happened (which we know is not the case), then you have bases to say he SURELY knew. Is it possible he knew? It's possible. Is it a certainty as you claim? Absolutely not. IMO, that is a more reasoned assessment than what you stated.
Ali
I love when people make a conscious effort to sound smarter than they are by using ridiclous vocabulary. Ali we're on a Gn'R message board, not a court room. Seriously drop the act already. You know how I know it's an act? Cause you'd never talk that way in real life to any of us. I've never seen anyone buy into their own online persona like you do. The more people suggesed you act like Gn'R's attourney the more you play it up. It's so fucking weird.
- Mikkamakka
- Rep: 217
Re: Doug Goldstein Letter to Axl
Ali wrote:Mikkamakka wrote:Common sense, Ali. You know, that something other people use. Believe me, nobody on Earth would sign over a million dollar worth property for nothing, just to see Axl smile. Except you, maybe.
I have common sense, but I think the problem is your definition of common sense is tantamount to presumptions that suit your pre-existing notions of how this situation unfolded. You say Axl surely knew that dirty tricks were used by Big FD to get Slash/Duff to sign over the name. Unless there is some recording or paper trail where he gives explicit instructions to try and coerce Slash/Duff into signing over the name, or he was actually in the room when it happened (which we know is not the case), then you have bases to say he SURELY knew. Is it possible he knew? It's possible. Is it a certainty as you claim? Absolutely not. IMO, that is a more reasoned assessment than what you stated.
Ali
I love when people make a conscious effort to sound smarter than they are by using ridiclous vocabulary. Ali we're on a Gn'R message board, not a court room. Seriously drop the act already. You know how I know it's an act? Cause you'd never talk that way in real life to any of us. I've never seen anyone buy into their own online persona like you do. The more people suggesed you act like Gn'R's attourney the more you play it up. It's so fucking weird.
Absolutely.
Ali, I know that you will not allow yourself to understand it. But. A last try.
Imagine that you own a palace together with 2 of your (ex-)friends. This palace worths millions of dollars. You wanna own it alone, for whatever reason - you want the property or you think that your (ex-)friends are making a mess there all the time. You barely even talk anymore, it's a cold war between you and them.
You have a friend. A very loyal friend, who does things for you. One day he comes in and says: 'Ali, now it's your house. The others singed over their rights'. Whether you asked him to get this job done or the result came all of the sudden, doesn't matter that much right now. But. Wouldn't you be fuckin' surprised? Wouldn't you wanna know how it happened? Would you believe for a nanosecond that they signed over that million dollar worth property without getting any money for it? Wouldn't you suspect some dirty things, like blackmailing them and such?
I think the answer is pretty clear.
Also, imagine the situation: after all this happened, you ask yourself to be your paid housekeeper and gardener. They did the same job before, when you owned the palace together, but now they either accept being your employee or need to leave the house.
The situation is pretty clear.
Axl wanted power over the others at any cost. He got it. Didn't care about how. And this is the best case scenario. The other says he wanted it to happen as bad as it can get.
- Intercourse
- Rep: 212
Re: Doug Goldstein Letter to Axl
I'll post a link to the rest of that article later. If you read the interview its clear that Axl believed the band must evolve using his vision as the UYI era was by his design (at least in his own mind). They were selling out stadiums etc so I guess the guy felt justified in making his presence felt upon the others.
Upon reading that article again, I think what happened to Axl is what happened to many investors in the crash; things went so well for so long that they no longer believed they could make a bad decision. They took bad advise from blood suckers and just kept rolling the dice, getting more arrogant and meaner.
Axl did the same. He saw himself as the creator of "Stadium GNR". Axl was turning GNR into an Elton John type set up, where the entire band worked in harmony to help the incredible showman on the piano to deliver his musical vision. Doug saw this too, probably saw himself as Axl's right hand man (and massive money maker) and set about clearing the decks of all "equals" (i.e. Slash & Duff) to ensure Axl realised this destiny.
Problem was, both men misjudged just how much Slash & Duff brought to the table, both musically and in the spirit of GNR, which people absolutely loved.
Re: Doug Goldstein Letter to Axl
I'm sorry. But nobody loved Duff that much (only on a Gnr board with some crazy fuckin fanatics)....he was just another bass player and was a burned out fat, alcoholic junkie during the UYI era. I was there. I actually know. People knew and still know Gnr as Axl/Slash. 
Re: Doug Goldstein Letter to Axl
I'm sorry. But nobody loved Duff that much (only on a Gnr board with some crazy fuckin fanatics)....he was just another bass player and was a burned out fat, alcoholic junkie during the UYI era. I was there. I actually know. People knew and still know Gnr as Axl/Slash.
Sad but true.
Outside the fanbase, even Izzy is dismissed. To the average Joe, only Axl and Slash matter, as in many other bands: Jagger/Richards, Bono/Edge (I cannot even name U2's bass player without google), Page/Plant, etc... The exception may be The Beatles, but if you'd make a concert in the nineties with George and Ringo and name it a reunion, interest wouldn't be that great either.
And it is this way with GNR ex-members still: headlines are always "GNR drummer (news)" or "GNR bass player (news)" and the content is always one paragraph news, three of old days, being two about Axl. Exception may be Slash, but only lately.
Re: Doug Goldstein Letter to Axl
Sky Dog wrote:I'm sorry. But nobody loved Duff that much (only on a Gnr board with some crazy fuckin fanatics)....he was just another bass player and was a burned out fat, alcoholic junkie during the UYI era. I was there. I actually know. People knew and still know Gnr as Axl/Slash.
And it is this way with GNR ex-members still: headlines are always "GNR drummer (news)" or "GNR bass player (news)" and the content is always one paragraph news, three of old days, being two about Axl. Exception may be Slash, but only lately.
Yeah I think that's down to Guitar Hero 3 a lot. The game was released in late October 2007, in 2008 it had sold 3.475 million units worldwide. That put Slash in 3.475 million homes worldwide in 2008 alone. He's not just in the game, he's the main feature of the cover. In 2008 Chinese Democracy sold 614,000 copies. Guitar Hero 3 was Slash's biggest post GNR exposure. Slash has never broke the million mark on a solo album and probably never will. He broke 3 million with Guitar Hero 3. In my opinion, GH3 separated Slash from his GNR past, in the eyes of about 3 million people. He wasn't Slash from GNR on there he was just Slash. It's ironic because Axl sued him for being in it and appearing as though eh was GNR. Which in my opinion he didn't really do. He was there as a solo act. Anyway. That's way off topic.
