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Re: Izzys No Show At RNR Hall Of Fame
I was out of the loop when the HOF happened but I'm guessing the backlash began when he didn't show, so couldn't his appearance with GNR have been a poorly judged attempt at making the fanbase happy? He maybe knew the fans would be unhappy with his no-show at the HOF so makes the effort to get out there and play a gig or two with GNR, one of which was due to be streamed online?
That's a really interesting perspective, I never thought of it that way.
- Intercourse
- Rep: 212
Re: Izzys No Show At RNR Hall Of Fame
Everyone of us could be like that about any form of human interaction Polluxlm.
Does not mean that taking this position is right.The argument is that many of us would have seen it as being honorable, nothing more.
You obviously have a different opinion and that's cool.
But that's not an argument, that's just an opinion. Nothing wrong with that of course, but I got the impression that is what monkey was trying to do, you know, point out legitimate reasons for why he should have went.
I mean, if you think that's honorable or not cool, but why? That's all I was trying to get at.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by trying to seperate "argument" from "opinion". People argue because of a difference of opinion i.e. one cannot be seperated from the other.
It has been long debated among fans just exactly what our idols "owe us".
You seem to be a low maintenance fan who just wants the body of music. For some of us that does not appear to be enough. Whether that is right or wrong is one for debate and I definately concede that wanting more becomes wrong very quickly.
Fans like me, (and Monkey too i suspect) have followed the story of each man as much as we've followed their music. We have devoured every piece of the GNR story along the way; as we age along with the band, I guess many of us have developed something of an emotional investment in their life story and would just like to see them be friends again, put the hate to rest, and embrace their legacy.
I didn't care about Izzy not showing until I watched the event. I was shocked to be moved by Steven and Duff's speeches. I was even more shocked to find myself admiring the maturity and humanity of Matt Sorum. Then I found myself to be pissed and Izzy & Axl for not even attempting to be a part of that. Axl i could understand, Izzy I could not.
Re: Izzys No Show At RNR Hall Of Fame
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by trying to seperate "argument" from "opinion". People argue because of a difference of opinion i.e. one cannot be seperated from the other.
It has been long debated among fans just exactly what our idols "owe us".
You seem to be a low maintenance fan who just wants the body of music. For some of us that does not appear to be enough. Whether that is right or wrong is one for debate and I definately concede that wanting more becomes wrong very quickly.Fans like me, (and Monkey too i suspect) have followed the story of each man as much as we've followed their music. We have devoured every piece of the GNR story along the way; as we age along with the band, I guess many of us have developed something of an emotional investment in their life story and would just like to see them be friends again, put the hate to rest, and embrace their legacy.
I didn't care about Izzy not showing until I watched the event. I was shocked to be moved by Steven and Duff's speeches. I was even more shocked to find myself admiring the maturity and humanity of Matt Sorum. Then I found myself to be pissed and Izzy & Axl for not even attempting to be a part of that. Axl i could understand, Izzy I could not.
There is a difference and I'll use the judicial system as an illustration. You can hold the opinion somebody is a bad guy, but you need a proper argument to put him in jail for it.
I was under the impression Monkey wasn't just voicing his opinion but trying to construct an argument for some sort of guilt. Being that he's from a family of lawyers I decided to play the judge and call "inadmissible!".
I'm a contract guy so to speak. If something is supposed to happen and it doesn't, there's a legitimate cause for complaint. Sure I'd like for certain members of the band to do more. I've been investing a lot in them over the years too, but after a while it just reached the point where I realized it was just about me. That I had created these expectations for myself and therefore also the disappointments. So I became what I am now. Not as exciting, but also less depressing.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Izzys No Show At RNR Hall Of Fame
Less selfish than you in this instance. At least he isn't complaining you're not doing something for him.
Not really. Sure I'd like him to do it. But it's not only me who wanted that. It's thousands and thousands of fans.
So I'm asking him to do something that he might not enjoy very much, but that won't actually really harm him and only lasts a few hours at most, but that will make an absolute ton of people happy. And it's too hard for him to do that.
That's the whole point. This situation was about history of rock. It's about recognising how thousands of people's lives were changed by that music. It's bigger than the individual preferences. It shouldn't matter that Izzy doesn't like photographers, and it shouldn't matter that Axl and Slash have a feud, and it shouldn't matter that Steven resents Matt or any other of the petty bullshit.
I saw Slash agree to go even when it was obvious he never wanted to from the first place and he looked pretty awkward being in front of the crowd with no guitar.
I saw Steven and Matt bury the hatchet.
I would have been nice if Axl could be there, but in his defence playing along would have completely undermined his business interests.
But Izzy doesn't have such a good reason. His only reason seems to be he didn't feel like it and he shouldn't have to do anything he doesn't want to do ever. It sounds like a toddler. I wish we all lived our lives without having to meet any external expectations.
Again it's not me that wanted this, it's thousands of people in every country in the world, it's the media, it's the industry, it's an expected part of his business.
And he has been consistent. He said way back that it wasn't GN'R without the 5 of them and he confirmed that by not showing up at the hall to be a backing man for the Slash and Myles Kennedy show. Doing a few songs with Axl now and then, or VR for that matter, is something else entirely. Doesn't mean he's changed his opinion about this being GN'R or not, it just means he wants to hang and play with friends once in a while.
I don't think that's consistent at all. So when he appears with Axl he's just hanging with his friends - even though Axl bills the show as GNR - and films it for release as a GNR performance in theatres worldwide. But if he'd played at a ceremony intended to honour GNR with his friends Slash/Duff/Steven then he's somehow a backing man supporting myles when it's not the real GNR?
Either GNR is only the original line up or it isn't.
I just find it odd that he's purest enough to shun the circus of the RRHOF, yet is unfazed by the circus of 7 guys - 6 of whom never lived with GNR in hell house etc being billed as GNR and playing an album they didn't write. Unless of course it's not at all about what he thinks is GNR....just as the price of the tickets is unlikely to really be why dizzy didn't want to appear....and it's all actually just about what Izzy can and can't be bothered doing. Which at the end of the day would be his right. BUT if someone consistently acts without regard to anyone else but themselves....well..they have the right too...but people don't tend to appreciate them.
I respect him for writing some great songs, but this situation was bigger than his personal wants for the night, and it's telling to me that he's the only member of the band who couldn't seem to see that.
Re: Izzys No Show At RNR Hall Of Fame
Not really. Sure I'd like him to do it. But it's not only me who wanted that. It's thousands and thousands of fans.
Thousands of people want Rhianna to take her clothes off (or the few that she had to begin with), that doesn't make her obligated to do it. Nor is the request any less selfish just because it's supported by thousands of others. It's not a democracy.
So I'm asking him to do something that he might not enjoy very much, but that won't actually really harm him and only lasts a few hours at most, but that will make an absolute ton of people happy. And it's too hard for him to do that.
It might be hard for him to a degree we don't realize, or he may just be a careless prick. We don't know. But I wouldn't label it out of the realm of possibility that his reasons for going had something to do with what he considers GN'R in that particular setting, and he reclined out of principle once he found out everybody wasn't going (and/or possibly friendship to Axl). I don't see anything particular invalid about that position.
That's the whole point. This situation was about history of rock. It's about recognising how thousands of people's lives were changed by that music. It's bigger than the individual preferences. It shouldn't matter that Izzy doesn't like photographers, and it shouldn't matter that Axl and Slash have a feud, and it shouldn't matter that Steven resents Matt or any other of the petty bullshit.
But that's just your opinion. Your vision of what it should be about. Going to award shows is not necessarily in the job description of a musician. I as a fellow fan certainly do not consider it to be. I want music, made in the studio, on some sort of storeable medium. Everything else is just a bonus. Both approaches are valid of course, but you shouldn't blame him when something doesn't fit in a world you yourself essentially created (or, along with others, chose to believe in).
I saw Slash agree to go even when it was obvious he never wanted to from the first place and he looked pretty awkward being in front of the crowd with no guitar.
I saw Steven and Matt bury the hatchet.
I would have been nice if Axl could be there, but in his defence playing along would have completely undermined his business interests.
Slash, Duff, Matt and Steven have absolutely nothing to lose by attending this. You could include Izzy in that as well, but since he refused he at least appears to have personal reasons. Impossible to say if they knew this beforehand, but what did that performance really gain? The joy of seeing some of the old guys make tribute to the glory days or the realization how hollow it feels without Axl and Izzy and the anger that goes along with that? I don't know, but a lot of fans appear to have mostly negative feelings associated with the HOF.
Maybe Izzy saw that once he knew Axl wouldn't be there. It's possible.
But Izzy doesn't have such a good reason. His only reason seems to be he didn't feel like it and he shouldn't have to do anything he doesn't want to do ever. It sounds like a toddler. I wish we all lived our lives without having to meet any external expectations.
Again it's not me that wanted this, it's thousands of people in every country in the world, it's the media, it's the industry, it's an expected part of his business.
I'm sure he still has to attend to his bills and personal relations. Just because he didn't want to do this totally external event doesn't make him a toddler. It's not like he made a deal with you back when you bought AFD that he would participate in these fan friendly events later. He charged you 10 bucks for the record, and that's that. I mean, by your line of reasoning he should rejoin GN'R and make a badass 80s record because millions of fans surely would want that. Yeah it be nice, but so? Is that reason to cast negative judgement on a man just because he played on a few cassettes you bought 20 years ago?
I don't think that's consistent at all. So when he appears with Axl he's just hanging with his friends - even though Axl bills the show as GNR - and films it for release as a GNR performance in theatres worldwide. But if he'd played at a ceremony intended to honour GNR with his friends Slash/Duff/Steven then he's somehow a backing man supporting myles when it's not the real GNR?
Either GNR is only the original line up or it isn't.
I just find it odd that he's purest enough to shun the circus of the RRHOF, yet is unfazed by the circus of 7 guys - 6 of whom never lived with GNR in hell house etc being billed as GNR and playing an album they didn't write. Unless of course it's not at all about what he thinks is GNR....just as the price of the tickets is unlikely to really be why dizzy didn't want to appear....and it's all actually just about what Izzy can and can't be bothered doing. Which at the end of the day would be his right. BUT if someone consistently acts without regard to anyone else but themselves....well..they have the right too...but people don't tend to appreciate them.
I respect him for writing some great songs, but this situation was bigger than his personal wants for the night, and it's telling to me that he's the only member of the band who couldn't seem to see that.
Playing with GN'R pleases thousands of fans and most importantly, it doesn't hurt anybody. And perhaps you're right, perhaps he doesn't give a fuck about all this "what is GN'R" thing anymore and he's just hanging out for a good time and a paycheck. But then your argument that he didn't go because he couldn't be bothered doesn't fly either, as he obviously intended to go when he waited to see if Axl would be there first.
So if it isn't about flakiness or real gn'r, it might just be about the fact that once Axl is absent that is what people will focus on, and he'd be singled out even more if all 4 of them had attended. It just creates a lot of bullshit and certainly not the celebratory feeling it's supposed to be about. Maybe he just didn't want to be a part of that.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Izzys No Show At RNR Hall Of Fame
Maybe.
I just look at it like this - imagine if a party was thrown in my honour to celebrate my life's work and what I've given to society.
Thousands of people who have supported me in every stage in my career are hopeful that I will go and appear at the party which honours me.
I don't turn up.
I wasn't under any obligation to go. I already did my life's work - the world got that. I'm not contractually obliged to go just because it's being done to honour me and everyone wants me there.
But it does make me a dickhead.
And people who spent years supporting every decision I made might look at their own choices and think "if this guy doesn't give a shit about what we think enough to come to our party we threw for him, maybe we will stop giving a shit about him too".
Re: Izzys No Show At RNR Hall Of Fame
The big difference is it's not a celebration of him, it's of a collective of persons. With many versions in both past and present. Two of which have an ongoing, unprecedented beef. Is it so unfeasible that he didn't want the avoidable tension with one of his (volatile) friends that it would surely lead to? Maybe coupled with the amputated feeling of it all by not having the lead singer there? It's not like this is family or close colleagues he's turning down either, it's a promotional event very much like any other.
And there are not many supporters in this instance. What has this support been? If you're talking about all the people working on the sidelines they get paid to do so, and expect to be. If you're talking about fans they paid for a musical high, and they have it for as long as there's electricity in the stereo. They're not giving him a monthly allowance or anything like that. They're basically expecting a refill.
Would any of them or even any of us be there for him if he didn't have something to offer? The Hall itself is just trying to boost their bottom line by lending the bankability of others to put on a profitable show. They've had nothing to do with Izzy's career and he certainly doesn't owe them anything. Nor the collection of mostly strangers that choose to attend and watch it, for their own purely selfish reasons.
What is it that you want here anyway? Would having Izzy there really have been all that a redeeming factor for missing Axl in the first place? Apart from Steven there's not anything there you can't get on a semi regular basis already. Even if the magical happened and Axl showed up it'd still just be a few okeish performances of songs you've heard a thousands times and you'd be right back with new gnr and Axl hating Slash again. You want them to go up there and lie to us?
In most other cases I'd agree with you. Go up there and just have a good time for yourselves and the fans. But this GN'R thing is extremely particular. We weren't really surprised when this thing turned into a clusterfuck, were we? With all that bad air looming I really don't see why it's so hard to accept that emotionally this might not at all have felt right to Izzy.
And again, with Axl a no show the air is already fizzled out of the balloon so I just don't see what the drama is about. Feels a little like you're just redirecting you disappointment over the whole thing to an available target. If that's the case I just want to say, he's the only guy who could be called at semi member of the band at this point. He's been doing several gigs with Axl and seems to be on good terms with him. A return in some capacity certainly seems a lot more likely than in the past. And I doubt it's the 10k or whatever they slip him that motivates him.
I'm sure he enjoys to perform for the fans. Only without all the drama. Guy doesn't like drama and has decided he can afford not to. Could be as simple as that, and I don't see why we shouldn't respect that.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Izzys No Show At RNR Hall Of Fame
You make some good points.
I guess we just have different ways of looking at it.
I mean for ANYTHING else I'd have been happy to just think "ahh it's Izzy being Izzy"..
....but I dunno this one was just one too many times to the well for me. I'm ok with every other GNR event turning into some kind of clusterfuck but this one....to me not showing up to the party was just rude....
I dunno how to explain how I feel about it.
You know in the movie casino where de niro's chararacter is at war with joe pesci's character....and when there's a problem with De niro's wife...peschi says to him "You should have called me. This aint business. It's family".
I'm cool with GNR not wanting to reunite. But I think the personal bullshit should have been put aside for the night. They didn't have to play. But the whole industry, the fans, the media the world was focused on this event as a chance to say thanks to GNR.
It sucks Axl didn't come - but his reason is at least logical.
Izzy. Well. I just see it as rude.
It's cool if other people don't see it that way...but Will asked why I'd lost respect...and that's pretty much it...as far as I'm concerned it was a dick move and until such time as he apologises...or gives an actual good reason for not showing up...i'm treating him as a guy who did great stuff but doesn't respect his fans.
Re: Izzys No Show At RNR Hall Of Fame
You make some good points.
I guess we just have different ways of looking at it.
I mean for ANYTHING else I'd have been happy to just think "ahh it's Izzy being Izzy"..
....but I dunno this one was just one too many times to the well for me. I'm ok with every other GNR event turning into some kind of clusterfuck but this one....to me not showing up to the party was just rude....
I dunno how to explain how I feel about it.
You know in the movie casino where de niro's chararacter is at war with joe pesci's character....and when there's a problem with De niro's wife...peschi says to him "You should have called me. This aint business. It's family".
I'm cool with GNR not wanting to reunite. But I think the personal bullshit should have been put aside for the night. They didn't have to play. But the whole industry, the fans, the media the world was focused on this event as a chance to say thanks to GNR.
It sucks Axl didn't come - but his reason is at least logical.
Izzy. Well. I just see it as rude.
It's cool if other people don't see it that way...but Will asked why I'd lost respect...and that's pretty much it...as far as I'm concerned it was a dick move and until such time as he apologises...or gives an actual good reason for not showing up...i'm treating him as a guy who did great stuff but doesn't respect his fans.
Agree mate 
Re: Izzys No Show At RNR Hall Of Fame
I look at it this way, am I obligated to be a nice person, to be friendly to people, to go out of my way and do things purely for someone else's benefit for no gain to myself. Do I have to go attend my kids sports event and support them when I would rather be home in bed. Do I have to attend that bloody family function etc etc.
No of course not, but if it's something that others feel is a big deal then I fully expect they will think I'm a dick for not going and cop some shit for putting my own selfish needs above the collective of others.
Absolutely im not obligated to do anything for anyone I'm entitled to be a miserable cunt all my life if i want. But if everyone had that narcissistic attitude and never put someone else ahead of themselves or never did something purely for the benefit of others with no gain for themselves, the world would be a pretty bleak place.
I respect people that put other people ahead of themselves and lose respect for people who are selfish. In this case I lost a little respect for Izzy because of his actions.
