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Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
And I agree he opened the door a crack, but it's the his terms that's a huge problem. His terms are complete unconditional surrender. That's not going to happen, nor should it. They should BOTH be accepting responsibility for their roles in everything that happened.
I would agree with this except for Slash showing up at his house. No matter what Slash says, I totally buy him calling Scott a fraud. I totally buy he wanted to squash the feud and get back with his boy. If it went as far as wanting to rejoin GN'R, I don't know. VR were already having problems back then, so, you never know. I think it was more personal than professional.
At some point will Slash make an unconditional surrender? Some days I say yes, some days I say no.
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
I disagree completely. That's not a logical interpretation at all. We don't even know what exactly was trying to be worked out, but he states that he was trying to work something out amicably, but that wasn't possible. He felt, for whatever reason, like he was not being respected or that the HOF was not willing to compromise. He's very clear about that in his letter.
I'm not saying this has nothing to do with the past or current bandmates, just that it DOES have something to do with the hall and how this whole thing was going down.
"Under the circumstances I feel we've been polite, courteous, and open to an amicable solution in our efforts to work something out."
"the Hall Of Fame Induction Ceremony doesn't appear to be somewhere I'm actually wanted or respected."
I understand how it's logical to read that and feel that he isn't stating that he doesn't feel the HOF has been willing to work something out.
Ali
Well, at least you had a brief time earlier in this thread where you were making good points. Oh well...
It has NOTHING to do with the HoF itself. The sooner you understand that, the sooner you can come back to joining the discussion.
The bolded part is quite telling. What it means is I've been a dick because you're trying to force me into relationships I don't wish to be in. I could have been a huge dick, but I'm trying to get you to do what I want. What the next line means is since you wouldn't let me do things the way I wanted to, then you don't respect me or want me there. I could analyze the whole letter later tonight for you if you want so you could understand what is really being said so you understand why it really has nothing to do with the HoF itself.
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
buzzsaw wrote:And I agree he opened the door a crack, but it's the his terms that's a huge problem. His terms are complete unconditional surrender. That's not going to happen, nor should it. They should BOTH be accepting responsibility for their roles in everything that happened.
I would agree with this except for Slash showing up at his house. No matter what Slash says, I totally buy him calling Scott a fraud. I totally buy he wanted to squash the feud and get back with his boy. If it went as far as wanting to rejoin GN'R, I don't know. VR were already having problems back then, so, you never know. I think it was more personal than professional.
At some point will Slash make an unconditional surrender? Some days I say yes, some days I say no.
You may be right; doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't happen. Axl has to accept responsibility for his role in it to.
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
Ali wrote:I disagree completely. That's not a logical interpretation at all. We don't even know what exactly was trying to be worked out, but he states that he was trying to work something out amicably, but that wasn't possible. He felt, for whatever reason, like he was not being respected or that the HOF was not willing to compromise. He's very clear about that in his letter.
I'm not saying this has nothing to do with the past or current bandmates, just that it DOES have something to do with the hall and how this whole thing was going down.
"Under the circumstances I feel we've been polite, courteous, and open to an amicable solution in our efforts to work something out."
"the Hall Of Fame Induction Ceremony doesn't appear to be somewhere I'm actually wanted or respected."
I understand how it's logical to read that and feel that he isn't stating that he doesn't feel the HOF has been willing to work something out.
Ali
Well, at least you had a brief time earlier in this thread where you were making good points. Oh well...
It has NOTHING to do with the HoF itself. The sooner you understand that, the sooner you can come back to joining the discussion.
The bolded part is quite telling. What it means is I've been a dick because you're trying to force me into relationships I don't wish to be in. I could have been a huge dick, but I'm trying to get you to do what I want. What the next line means is since you wouldn't let me do things the way I wanted to, then you don't respect me or want me there. I could analyze the whole letter later tonight for you if you want so you could understand what is really being said so you understand why it really has nothing to do with the HoF itself.
This arrogance and condescension in your posts are completely unnecessary.
I've joined the discussion, you just are so steadfast and arrogant in your belief that you're are 100% right that you do not allow for another perspective to be considered.
Even if it is true that he's being forced into relationships he doesn't wish to be in, which I believe makes sense BTW, that is an issue he has WITH THE HALL for being unyielding in that. It is NOT just about the old band. He's saying the HOF has not been open to something where I wouldn't have to be in an awkward situation. That is related to the old band, yes, but it is a criticism of the HOF and their handling of this. How is that so hard to see?
Ali
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
This arrogance and condescension in your posts are completely unnecessary.
I've joined the discussion, you just are so steadfast and arrogant in your belief that you're are 100% right that you do not allow for another perspective to be considered.
Even if it is true that he's being forced into relationships he doesn't wish to be in, which I believe makes sense BTW, that is an issue he has WITH THE HALL for being unyielding in that. It is NOT just about the old band. He's saying the HOF has not been open to something where I wouldn't have to be in an awkward situation. That is related to the old band, yes, but it is a criticism of the HOF and their handling of this. How is that so hard to see?
Ali
No, it is necessary. You make it necessary with your constant nitpicking. I find it amazing that you always pick one minute little detail to focus on while ignoring everything else, then claim to be the victim when people tell you you're missing the point. Your perspective was considered and dismissed.
The Hall is the platform; that's it. Same as Azoff was the platform. Same as every other person that tried to get a reunion going was the platform. None of them were the issue; what they were trying to do was the issue. That goes for the Hall. And when he didn't get what he wanted, he did the same thing he did to every other platform: he told them to take a hike. It could have just as easily been the Little Sisters of the Blind Middle School or the President of the United States and they would have gotten the same message. The reason? It's not about them.
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
funny........from MTV
An Open Letter To Axl Rose And Guns N' Roses Fans Everywhere
Our columnist comes out in support of the last remaining rock star after Axl's Rock and Roll Hall of Fame kiss-off.
By James Montgomery
To: W. Axl Rose, Guns N' Roses Fans and Whom It May Concern,
Greetings from New York City, which is approximately 490 miles from Cleveland, site of this weekend's Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction ceremony and roughly 50 bazillion miles from whatever Bedouin caravan Mr. Rose is currently encamped with — though, to be honest, it feels much farther removed from both. Especially given the reaction most GN'R fans have had to Rose's open letter to the Hall of Fame, which he published Wednesday and which has subsequently turned him into the most hated man on the Internet.
Here's the thing (and, really, the reason I'm writing this letter): Despite the thousands of comments his letter has generated — which largely run the gamut from "YOU SUCK" to "Axl Rose is a freaking whiny-ass bitch" — I'm happy to be in the minority of people who seemingly have no problem with it whatsoever. In fact, I think it's pretty awesome.
Because I support Axl Rose. And yes, I am aware that, in the past, I have called him "the creepy old guy with the Raiders jersey who lives on top of the hill" and compared him to Lil Wayne. And sure, I realize his recent, uh, output might not be on par with Guns' previous efforts (anyone can have a bad 20 years). But after reading his letter, none of those things matter. Or, if anything, they actually made it better for me. Because Axl Rose is a rock star. Maybe the last one standing. He is an anachronism and an enigma. There will never be another like him, and really, his missive to the Rock Hall is just further proof of all those points.
To wit: There are a lot of words in Rose's letter (more than 1,000 of them), none of which are "apology." This is because Axl never apologizes. Because he doesn't have to, and he doesn't care if that offends you. He also never allows himself to be backed into a corner — and everything from his unrelenting blood feud with Slash to the 15-year wait for Chinese Democracy is basically proof of this — and he intimates at several points in his letter that everyone from the HOF committee to his former bandmates was basically attempting to do just that. So rather than be intimidated, Rose just decided to walk away from the whole thing. As he writes, "No one's taking the ball and going home. ... From my perspective ... the ball's never been in our court."
It's easy to call Rose a jerk for doing this, but, really, he is a jerk. It's what makes him who he is and why he's still able to sell out arenas around the world. We've come to expect nothing less, and yet we're willing to vilify him for acting the way he always has.
In some bizarre way, by skipping the induction (and asking his name not be mentioned in absentia), Rose displays a supreme level of actual integrity. Unlike, say, Ozzy Osbourne, who previously asked that his band Black Sabbath no longer be considered for the Hall only to show up at the 2006 induction and call it an "achievement," Axl won't come crawling back. And unlike fellow 2006 inductees Blondie, he spared anyone the ugly onstage feud that surely would've erupted by simply saying, "No thanks." He does what he wants and only what he wants. And the same goes for that much-discussed GN'R reunion, which he shuts down in the letter because, really, it's "time to move on."
And that last quote should be taken to heart by all the Guns fans out there raging against Rose today. Because, really, it is time to move on. Move on from your misguided beliefs that Rose is ever going to change or suddenly have a moment of clarity. It's been, like, 20 years now, and he's never wavered from his original point: No reunion, not ever. Guns N' Roses are still a band and they still tour, and if you don't like it, then don't come out to the shows. Even though you probably still will.
So, sure, be angry with Axl today. Make claims of never listening to his music again (which would suppose he's ever going to make music again) and accuse him of putting himself before his fans. But don't take him to task for being the same person he's been for 25 years now, because, really, you wouldn't want him to change. Not for a reunion tour, not for an induction ceremony, not for anything. He will continue to blaze his own path whether you follow him or not. And I applaud him for doing so. He is Axl Rose, after all. He is rock and roll in an era where that phrase has increasingly less clout. We want him on that wall. We need him on that wall. It's about the only way we can sleep at night, knowing somewhere, Axl is watching over us all. And writing open letters to let us know he still cares.
Sincerely,
James Montgomery
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
Ali wrote:This arrogance and condescension in your posts are completely unnecessary.
I've joined the discussion, you just are so steadfast and arrogant in your belief that you're are 100% right that you do not allow for another perspective to be considered.
Even if it is true that he's being forced into relationships he doesn't wish to be in, which I believe makes sense BTW, that is an issue he has WITH THE HALL for being unyielding in that. It is NOT just about the old band. He's saying the HOF has not been open to something where I wouldn't have to be in an awkward situation. That is related to the old band, yes, but it is a criticism of the HOF and their handling of this. How is that so hard to see?
Ali
No, it is necessary. You make it necessary with your constant nitpicking. I find it amazing that you always pick one minute little detail to focus on while ignoring everything else, then claim to be the victim when people tell you you're missing the point. Your perspective was considered and dismissed.
The Hall is the platform; that's it. Same as Azoff was the platform. Same as every other person that tried to get a reunion going was the platform. None of them were the issue; what they were trying to do was the issue. That goes for the Hall. And when he didn't get what he wanted, he did the same thing he did to every other platform: he told them to take a hike. It could have just as easily been the Little Sisters of the Blind Middle School or the President of the United States and they would have gotten the same message. The reason? It's not about them.
I disagree, it wasn't necessary. Someone as articulate as you can make their point without it. The devil is in the details. You can't ignore one point in order to make a larger point, either, which is what I think you're doing.
I understand now what you're saying a little better. But, the one point I'll disagree with you on is that "what they were trying to do", their (the HOF, Azoff) actions make it about them. I don't think you can disconnect the organization or individuals from their actions. Had they not tried to force relationships Axl doesn't want, there might not have been any conflict whatsoever.
Yes, of course, there would be no issues here if there wasn't the dissolution of the old lineup. But, there is, and apparently pushing those old relationships on Axl angers him greatly and earns his venom. The person or persons who do that are responsible for and intrinsically linked to their actions.
Ali
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
funny........from MTV
An Open Letter To Axl Rose And Guns N' Roses Fans Everywhere
Our columnist comes out in support of the last remaining rock star after Axl's Rock and Roll Hall of Fame kiss-off.By James Montgomery
To: W. Axl Rose, Guns N' Roses Fans and Whom It May Concern,Greetings from New York City, which is approximately 490 miles from Cleveland, site of this weekend's Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction ceremony and roughly 50 bazillion miles from whatever Bedouin caravan Mr. Rose is currently encamped with — though, to be honest, it feels much farther removed from both. Especially given the reaction most GN'R fans have had to Rose's open letter to the Hall of Fame, which he published Wednesday and which has subsequently turned him into the most hated man on the Internet.
Here's the thing (and, really, the reason I'm writing this letter): Despite the thousands of comments his letter has generated — which largely run the gamut from "YOU SUCK" to "Axl Rose is a freaking whiny-ass bitch" — I'm happy to be in the minority of people who seemingly have no problem with it whatsoever. In fact, I think it's pretty awesome.
Because I support Axl Rose. And yes, I am aware that, in the past, I have called him "the creepy old guy with the Raiders jersey who lives on top of the hill" and compared him to Lil Wayne. And sure, I realize his recent, uh, output might not be on par with Guns' previous efforts (anyone can have a bad 20 years). But after reading his letter, none of those things matter. Or, if anything, they actually made it better for me. Because Axl Rose is a rock star. Maybe the last one standing. He is an anachronism and an enigma. There will never be another like him, and really, his missive to the Rock Hall is just further proof of all those points.
To wit: There are a lot of words in Rose's letter (more than 1,000 of them), none of which are "apology." This is because Axl never apologizes. Because he doesn't have to, and he doesn't care if that offends you. He also never allows himself to be backed into a corner — and everything from his unrelenting blood feud with Slash to the 15-year wait for Chinese Democracy is basically proof of this — and he intimates at several points in his letter that everyone from the HOF committee to his former bandmates was basically attempting to do just that. So rather than be intimidated, Rose just decided to walk away from the whole thing. As he writes, "No one's taking the ball and going home. ... From my perspective ... the ball's never been in our court."
It's easy to call Rose a jerk for doing this, but, really, he is a jerk. It's what makes him who he is and why he's still able to sell out arenas around the world. We've come to expect nothing less, and yet we're willing to vilify him for acting the way he always has.
In some bizarre way, by skipping the induction (and asking his name not be mentioned in absentia), Rose displays a supreme level of actual integrity. Unlike, say, Ozzy Osbourne, who previously asked that his band Black Sabbath no longer be considered for the Hall only to show up at the 2006 induction and call it an "achievement," Axl won't come crawling back. And unlike fellow 2006 inductees Blondie, he spared anyone the ugly onstage feud that surely would've erupted by simply saying, "No thanks." He does what he wants and only what he wants. And the same goes for that much-discussed GN'R reunion, which he shuts down in the letter because, really, it's "time to move on."
And that last quote should be taken to heart by all the Guns fans out there raging against Rose today. Because, really, it is time to move on. Move on from your misguided beliefs that Rose is ever going to change or suddenly have a moment of clarity. It's been, like, 20 years now, and he's never wavered from his original point: No reunion, not ever. Guns N' Roses are still a band and they still tour, and if you don't like it, then don't come out to the shows. Even though you probably still will.
So, sure, be angry with Axl today. Make claims of never listening to his music again (which would suppose he's ever going to make music again) and accuse him of putting himself before his fans. But don't take him to task for being the same person he's been for 25 years now, because, really, you wouldn't want him to change. Not for a reunion tour, not for an induction ceremony, not for anything. He will continue to blaze his own path whether you follow him or not. And I applaud him for doing so. He is Axl Rose, after all. He is rock and roll in an era where that phrase has increasingly less clout. We want him on that wall. We need him on that wall. It's about the only way we can sleep at night, knowing somewhere, Axl is watching over us all. And writing open letters to let us know he still cares.
Sincerely,
James Montgomery
I grew up with the writer of this piece (full disclosure), although I haven't really seen him since college. Good guy, but was never a big GN'R fan, so, there is no bias here one way or another.
I agree with this: He also never allows himself to be backed into a corner — and everything from his unrelenting blood feud with Slash to the 15-year wait for Chinese Democracy is basically proof of this — and he intimates at several points in his letter that everyone from the HOF committee to his former bandmates was basically attempting to do just that. So rather than be intimidated, Rose just decided to walk away from the whole thing.
The hall, or as Buzzsaw would state, their actions, were a factor in this. I agree with James.
Ali
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
In some bizarre way, by skipping the induction (and asking his name not be mentioned in absentia), Rose displays a supreme level of actual integrity. Unlike, say, Ozzy Osbourne, who previously asked that his band Black Sabbath no longer be considered for the Hall only to show up at the 2006 induction and call it an "achievement," Axl won't come crawling back. And unlike fellow 2006 inductees Blondie, he spared anyone the ugly onstage feud that surely would've erupted by simply saying, "No thanks."
Been saying that from the start.
Axl drew a line in the sand. Time to bust out "Going Down" and get this ball rolling, or every word he said is completely meaningless.
