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Re: So.... What's Next?
The way I see it, everyone did what they had to do to stay afloat.
Slash was a junkie and needed to be on tour to save himself from himself.
Axl was going through a dark time and struggling to cope with his emotional load and the demands of the tour.
Management was trying to push a collection of druggies and a moody wildcard into a unit that can continue to make them more money.
So everyone has an interest.
My issue is - if it related to succession law only - then papers could have been drawn up that only gave Axl full control once Slash and Duff passed away. But that's not what the deal said.
Meanwhile - considering Axl is the member of the group most likely to tell the record label to go fuck themselves, or to start some kind of incident at a show - I'm not sure I'm buying that management independently thought it would be a great idea to give him sole control.
I'm not saying Axl directly threatened anything. But it's obvious to me that he's a smart guy, who has powerful emotions that he puts into his music, but that sometimes those same thoughts fuck him up to a point where trouble happens (lateness, riots, anger). This makes him at risk. If the band had fired Axl what would he have done. He needed to put himself in a safe place. So I think it was his idea that management draw up papers that gives him control of the brand.
I don't believe he directly threatened not to tour if it didn't happen to Slash or Duff. But I also don't think he needed to. His reputation alone would have covered that. They've been on the road with him for years - they know he's wild. Think in Slash's book when he says to Matt not to fight Axl even though he knows matt can handle himself - he says something like "you don't want to push Axl when he's back against a wall". Axl didn't need to say it explicitly.
Interesting speculation. So, you're saying that Axl knew he didn't he have to make an explicit threat, that his reputation alone would been enough to create that threat in the minds of Slash and Duff? And that Axl relied on that in order to get his way?
If so, that's a wild conspiracy theory. To know any of that for any degree of certainty, you'd have to had talked to him about the subject or read his mind at the time.
Sorry, I don't buy it. If for nothing else than the fact that Slash himself stated in his book that Axl brought up the issue of litigating the ownership of the band name after Steven was fired. So, it wasn't like he just ambushed Slash and Duff with this desire to want the rights to the band name if their partnership dissolved.
No matter what, the absence of a direct, explicit threat negates any sort of blackmail argument.
Ali
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: So.... What's Next?
Interesting speculation. So, you're saying that Axl knew he didn't he have to make an explicit threat, that his reputation alone would been enough to create that threat in the minds of Slash and Duff? And that Axl relied on that in order to get his way?
No I don't mean it like that. I'm not saying it was any kind of plot. Or that Axl was trying to manipulate anyone.
What I mean is I see Axl as a survivor. He's been through some shit. From his abusive step-father. To living in poverty on the LA streets. To staying alive as one of rocks iconic frontmen.
He has a degree of street smarts. I also believe that his emotional outbursts are not entirely within his control. So rather than a primadona or whatever - I see him as a creative genius - who's at war with the world but also at times with his self. Perhaps that's a romantic take on things. But that's the way it makes sense to me.
So I think Axl is smart enough to know that when he has one of these incidents (from being caught on youtube punching a photographer, to the st louis riot, to the nights he could hardly bring himself to go on stage) that it threatens his business interests. But I think he can't help those things happening. But he's smart enough to realise that when they do it makes him look bad - and so for survival he needs to be in a place where he is insulated from the fall out of those events.
If he is in an equal partnership, he can be sacked, if he is an employee he can be fired, for his own security he needs to be in a position where he is in charge. And that way he can do his best to kick ass - but if one of these unavoidable moments occurs - the damage is limited to reputation/financial etc - it's not career ending.
There's that rant Axl gave on stage once about how people better sort out their lives so they don't end up at Mcdonalds or something. He's a smart guy - he obtained success - and he's bright enough to insulate himself to maintain that sucess against potential threats - including the threat of his own mood swings - and the way to do that was to obtain the right to the name etc.
I don't knock him for it at all. It's smart. It's probably what anyone clever would do in his situation. So I think he had an agenda to get control to survive...but I don't think it was necessarily a plot to threaten the others with anything.
Now as for the idea of a threat - i'm not saying it ever even entered Axl's mind that his reputation would blackmail the others. But i think that even if he didn't intend it...factually the situation would generate that threat on it's own.
Because they know they've all been having issues getting along and it's already been wierd, they know Axl has a volatile personality, they know that when pushed he will fight, and it was obvious he really really wanted this to happen. So in my opinion that situation alone is loaded...there's a choice you can make that's smooth sailing or there's a choice you can make that's likely to increase the drama.
So i don't think Axl directly threatened them, and I don't think he even mentally planned to intimidate or threaten them. It's not some conspiracy plot. But I think that bottom line is he did want control of the name, and the others knew it, and they knew that failure to agree would start a protracted issue of the kind that they themselves didn't have the health or the stamina to endure..even if no one said it would...it's just obvious....so they just did what they were told to do by management.
Re: So.... What's Next?
I lean more to Monkey's side in the end....Axl is a survivor and saw that the ship was sinking. While I don't think he specifically made an individual threat on that particular night, I do believe Dougie had previously had the conversation with Ax before. Maybe Goldstein decided to pull it out at that time. The stories between Axl and Duff line up a bit from a time perspective. Throw in Canter's and Niven's stuff and you can put the puzzle together. Axl was way at odds with Niven and there was talk to toss Axl while Niven was their manager. Ax gets paranoid, figures out a way to get rid of Niven, then a few months/years later, Ax protects himself. Yes, he was protecting himself against guys he thought were/could die and potential managers who would come in and start a revolution against him. Classic stuff....all ego maniacs fighting for themselves, uneducated rockstars, sharks....a recipe for disaster that happened to many a band.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: So.... What's Next?
Exactly, I don't think there was anything vindictive about any of the judgments made by anyone. If you think about what it must be like to go from street-life to super-fame, to have those drug problems in the band, to have the unique personality's of guys like Izzy, Axl and Slash...and all their particular traits...so be surrounded by the madness and excess of rock and roll and the endless ethical dilemmas of that world. I think a good part of everyone's actions is just comming down to them trying to make sense of the insanity, and do what they do to keep alive and keep on top of the madness.
Duff pretty much says as much. Things like Axl not going out in public all that often...i'm sure if i had the level of public attention and abuse he has in 1993 I'd never leave the house either. Or Slash's choices...makes a lot more sense when you understand the depths of his substance abuse back in the day and what's going on around him.
End of the day being in GNR back in the day was a freak occurance to happen in a persons life, and all the guys just took the cards they were dealt with their own personalities and played the hand.
I don't think anyone of them is a saint, but I also don't think anyone of them is a bad person either. They just did what they did and god knows what I'd do in that context.
Re: So.... What's Next?
Duff pretty much says as much. Things like Axl not going out in public all that often...i'm sure if i had the level of public attention and abuse he has in 1993 I'd never leave the house either.
End of the day being in GNR back in the day was a freak occurance to happen in a persons life, and all the guys just took the cards they were dealt with their own personalities and played the hand.
They just did what they did and god knows what I'd do in that context.
And that was in the early 90's when social media was almost non existant. I can't imagine what a kid like Justin Bieber goes through. His music aside he actually seems like a pretty damn normal and down to earth kid. Makes ya wonder how long untill he cracks ala Britney Spears or if he'll keep it together.
I watched a show last night called "teenage paparazzo" which basically explores the publics obsession with celebrities. It was actually quite interesting yet it is really messed up and it does to a degree make you sympathize with what these celebrities sometimes go through.
So given someone who seems to suffer from paranoia like say Axl I can only imagine what fame, let alone instant fame can do to a person. I imagine for some people it would be pretty crippling. Clearly some handle it much better than others
Re: So.... What's Next?
At least they're on the radar as hopefully or possibly. A snippet of this "preview of upcoming releases for 2012".
http://www.noise11.com/news/the-noise11 … dium=email
And from the very probably to the hopefully possibly list: The Offspring, The Avalanches, MGMT, Guns N Roses, Taylor Swift, Metallica, Morrissey, The Strokes, The Walkmen, Yeasayer, and two albums from Janelle Monáe.
Re: So.... What's Next?
what's next is as follows:
1: Announcement of imminent new album in feb
2: Axl plays w/AFD line-up @ RnRHoF
3: Euro Tour
4: Album Released
5: The World Ends, the Mayans were right.
Re: So.... What's Next?
At least they're on the radar as hopefully or possibly. A snippet of this "preview of upcoming releases for 2012".
http://www.noise11.com/news/the-noise11 … dium=email
And from the very probably to the hopefully possibly list: The Offspring, The Avalanches, MGMT, Guns N Roses, Taylor Swift, Metallica, Morrissey, The Strokes, The Walkmen, Yeasayer, and two albums from Janelle Monáe.
It would be good but i cant see it happening till at least 2015
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: So.... What's Next?
what's next is as follows:
1: Announcement of imminent new album in feb
2: Axl plays w/AFD line-up @ RnRHoF
3: Euro Tour
4: Album Released
5: The World Ends, the Mayans were right.
Yeah but we'd all die happy
