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Re: Could the tide be turning
Here's how I see it.
The issue of whether or not this is the best line-up of GNR is irrelevant at this point.
It's 2011. Almost everyone knows that Axl is the only original member.
All the media outlets who gave CD rave reviews know. All the board members here know, even the casual fans in 2011 are well aware of the status of GNR.
Line-Up is a non issue. They're not trading on the line-up that's obvious. These guys don't even give interviews for Christ sakes.
GNR trades on the strength of the brands musical track record (which was critically maintained with CD) and on Axl Rose.
Unless someone goes back to '87 and swaps out SCOM and PC for Every Rose and Cherry Pie that's not going to change.
They're not trading on slash and izzy. They're trading on slash and izzy's past work. Their best work.
They're not trading on the Axl Slash mascot team. They're trading on the Axl rose show.
Now here's the thing. When GNR released CD the critics lauded it. That means, that regardless of the controversy surrounding Axl OR the line-up, the integrity of the music was preserved in the eyes of the media.
Musically speaking, GNR have a very strong track record, both with the original line-up and with the CD lineup.
That musical integrity is what matters for album sales. There are very few artists you can look at and say "never had a bad album". Against all the odds GNR became one of those bands in 2008.
There is no new album coming. It took 15 years to do CD and rather than surpassing the yard stick set by the original line-up CD retained it. No fucking way is any record label gonna put GNR's strongest selling point (the integrity of their track record) in the hands of DJ Ashba. Fuck me, it took Buckethead to make CD. Buckethead!!!! You don't replace him with DJ Ashba n Bumblefoot and still retain your musical integrity. At least not in a creative sense.
Expect a laboured re-recording process far down the line where Bumble and Ashba play Buckethead parts note for note. (that's if they don't walk) You couldn't trust these 2 to match Bucket creatively, there's too much at stake here.
GNR is trading on an almost perfect track record and one of the last remaining great rock singers. Simple.
CD proved new GNR lineups can carry the torch in the media. A new GNR album would sell better than CD as a result.
The problem is, the new line-up does not have a Buckethead, so we'll get some re-records and if we're lucky some retained Bucket leads.
When it comes it'll sell better than CD, but may not be as good due to the creative logjam in the band
Re: Could the tide be turning
buzzsaw wrote:Let's stick with the subject instead of deflecting it to something everyone understands is part of the problem. That's not what we're talking about here.
Right.
buzzsaw wrote:Ok, so back to the next step:
So...if people streamed it and didn't like it, and people bought it and didn't like it, it's reasonable to expect that sales would be lower for a subsequent album, correct?
That argument was proved invalid with the Metallica example.
Next!
Proved? You compared a band with it's core in place and that stayed relatively active with one that has one band member and nothing in 15 years and call that proved? You're out of the discussion.
Re: Could the tide be turning
apex-twin wrote:buzzsaw wrote:Let's stick with the subject instead of deflecting it to something everyone understands is part of the problem. That's not what we're talking about here.
Right.
buzzsaw wrote:Ok, so back to the next step:
So...if people streamed it and didn't like it, and people bought it and didn't like it, it's reasonable to expect that sales would be lower for a subsequent album, correct?
That argument was proved invalid with the Metallica example.
Next!
Proved? You compared a band with it's core in place and that stayed relatively active with one that has one band member and nothing in 15 years and call that proved? You're out of the discussion.
But there are no other bands like GNR ... ... You're assuming that GNR are trading on the strength of their line-up (which obviously they are not) rather than the strength of their musical integrity (Which obviously they are...it took 15 years to do CD to the level it's at in fact)
Re: Could the tide be turning
buzzsaw wrote:You're operating under the assumption that album 2 is actually done and not going to be tinkered with. I have no idea why you would operate under that assumption.
Those other bands cost quite a bit less to make an album, so it's easier to turn a profit.
Oh i'm sure there will be some tinkering. But most accounts list tracks close to completion. We know that bumble has played on tracks we don't have. It's really a matter of adding DJ and a little bit of Axl's digital messing around.
The budget for that wouldn't need to be very high....we know DJ completes his guitar parts using Eleven on protools HD that he has in his own studio...(he did this on Sixx Am, and Motley Crue)...both DJ and Bumble have studios - and I'd be surprised if Axl or the others didn't also have such equipment or access to it at a reasonable rates.
There's no real reason for recording costs to get into any significant sum of money. A new project would be different - but one that's 3/4 complete - no.
My point is - at this point the tinkering costs would be less than the cost of producting a full album for a smaller band - and those bands are profitable.
I don't think so - unless Axl gives up and releases an unfinished product again, and if that happens, it isn't going to sell.
Re: Could the tide be turning
buzzsaw wrote:apex-twin wrote:Right.
That argument was proved invalid with the Metallica example.
Next!
Proved? You compared a band with it's core in place and that stayed relatively active with one that has one band member and nothing in 15 years and call that proved? You're out of the discussion.
But there are no other bands like GNR ... ... You're assuming that GNR are trading on the strength of their line-up (which obviously they are not) rather than the strength of their musical integrity (Which obviously they are...it took 15 years to do CD to the level it's at in fact)
If the music is so strong, why did it die after 2 weeks of strong sales? Why did the free streams drop dramatically track by track?
Critics liked it. The same critics that you guys said are out to get Axl when they blast things he does. Fans? Not so much from the looks of it. At least not in the US.
Re: Could the tide be turning
If the music is so strong, why did it die after 2 weeks of strong sales?
When has the strength of a piece of music ever had anything to do with sales?
Why did the free streams drop dramatically track by track?
People don't listen to full albums online. It eats bandwidth like a bitch.
Critics liked it. The same critics that you guys said are out to get Axl when they blast things he does.
I'd actually consider myself an old GNR die-hard. But yes those same critics are the ones who maintained the GNR track record allowing Axl to keep trading on it. Putting him in a good position for the next CD having maintained that integrity.
Fans? Not so much from the looks of it. At least not in the US.
Not the fans. The fans don't get to write the professional reviews that will be quoted 10/20 years down the line
- monkeychow
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Re: Could the tide be turning
No fucking way is any record label gonna put GNR's strongest selling point (the integrity of their track record) in the hands of DJ Ashba. Fuck me, it took Buckethead to make CD. Buckethead!!!! You don't replace him with DJ Ashba n Bumblefoot and still retain your musical integrity.
I have a ton of respect for bucket as a guitarist - but from a record company POV - what's he really done? He's an advant guarde artist who mostly flies under the public radar. He's also known for his inconsistancy....even the bucketbot fans worry that there's 50 releases a year and some of them are genius and others forgettable. From a record company POV he's not a magic bullet.
DJ Ashba on the other hand steped in and helped Motley Crue deliver a sucessful album well past their prime. He's also just delivered all the guitar parts on Sixx Am - and their the recent album did very well on the charts.
Bucket is a formidable player - but the bulk of his music is suited to instrumental or otherwise unapproachable for the masses....DJ writes radio ready pop rock sounding riffs - the kind of thing that if you added Axl into would surely spark the attention of casual GNR fans of the past.
From a label's selfish perspective...I'd be choosing DJ over Bucket.
Re: Could the tide be turning
buzzsaw wrote:If the music is so strong, why did it die after 2 weeks of strong sales?
When has the strength of a piece of music ever had anything to do with sales?
buzzsaw wrote:Why did the free streams drop dramatically track by track?
People don't listen to full albums online. It eats bandwidth like a bitch.
Critics liked it. The same critics that you guys said are out to get Axl when they blast things he does.
I'd actually consider myself an old GNR die-hard. But yes those same critics are the ones who maintained the GNR track record allowing Axl to keep trading on it. Putting him in a good position for the next CD having maintained that integrity.
Fans? Not so much from the looks of it. At least not in the US.
Not the fans. The fans don't get to write the professional reviews that will be quoted 10/20 years down the line
Headed to bed, so I'm not going to take the time to break up the answers.
1) that wasn't my suggestion, it was someone elses. I do think it would have something to do with an album that was highly anticipated and sold quite a bit the first 2 weeks though.
2) Sort-of, but unless you're on dial-up streaming music on myspace isn't a big deal. Even so they would have skipped and checked out the beginning of all of the songs to see if they liked the basic vibe of the songs, which still would have counted as streaming the entire song. The # dropped at the very least to some extent because not everybody liked what they heard.
3) if the critics liked it and it flopped after 2 weeks, why would the record company expect something better the next time around?
4) no, fans buy (or don't buy) the record and/or later records.
Re: Could the tide be turning
2) if I was a casual fan and listened to CD then Shackler's I would have stopped listening to the stream and NOT bought the album. It doesn't sound close to the established brand....song 3 doesn't either.
3-4) every label in the world would be happy with 2-4 million albums sold worldwide. A new Gnr album does this. Yes, maybe only 200,00-500,00 in the US, but you easily have 2 million worldwide. You can blow that off all you want but the ticket sales from the tours outside the US prove there is still a big market out there and plenty of money to be made.
Actually, you are the one living in denial if you don't realize this....
