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Re: Chinese Democracy now $1.99
buzzsaw wrote:I said this going all the way back to the demos coming out: the songs might be great, it's impossible to tell with all of the crap going on.
Its interesting you think that. There's probably a few who agree...i think a few people around here have expressed that they enjoyed the "Catcher in the Rye" demo more than the final release as it had less layers.
Personally I generally liked the finished versions more than the demos, although I do think one of the charms of the catcher demo was that the panio used to be really loud and driving that opening, and now that it's down in the mix the tone is a little different.
But I dunno...from a songwriting perspective I can usually decide if I like the basis of a song even when there may be individual things I don't like.
For example, I don't like pop music all that much, prefer "real" instruments, not the biggest fan of female singers, but I thought lady gaga's paparazzi had a decent melody. It doens't mean I really liked the final track all that much and blast it - but the underlying song I would probably like on an acoustic guitar with chris cornel singing it hahahah....
OR in metal...Master of Puppets is a pretty cool song - but I listen to the classic version and the bass is too quiet, some of the recording tones suck..there's production issues. It doesn't mean the song itself isn't a masterpiece in terms of cool guitar riffs.
So yeah, there's elements of the way CD was produced that I can accept people don't appriciate....maybe they don't like 3 guitarists...maybe they think someone else would have played a better solo....completely understand....but the songs themselves are very good...I say again...how is Catcher in the Rye all that different from a song like Breakdown?
I can't hear enough of the songwriting to have an opinion on it. I can hear a bunch of crap - much of it that doesn't really fit the song. The songs the way they are so overdone that it leads me to believe that they aren't strong songs, or the performance wasn't strong. Either way, less is more. If you can't play it live the way you record it, don't record it. It's one of the reasons I prefer UYI to AFD...not that UYI doesn't have some layering, but less than AFD does as far as overdubs and things like that go. UYI's songs are pretty pure sounding to me.
How is Catcher different? How is it the same? I don't hear anything that even remotely makes them similar. I've always said I love Axl's song structures. There's a reason that my favorite GnR songs are Estranged, TWAT, Breakdown, and NR and not the Izzy/Duff songs (not that I don't like those as well). If they had a Breakdown on that album, I'd love it as much as TWAT. There isn't one.
Re: Chinese Democracy now $1.99
When you get down to brass tacks, the album did not have enough single worthy songs to sustain long term success. Even if the title track or Better had caught on like Just Dance or Poker Face, where does it go from there? NOWHERE.
Like I said when it was initially released, the only shot it had singles wise was marketing This I Love, If the World,etc. to easy listening stations. Even doing that would have been a risk.
The album didn't have a monster single and there's no getting around that no matter how we approach the issue. GNR needed a Cochise or Vertigo and in ten years couldn't come up with one. Case closed.
Maybe next time....
I agree CD isn't a single oriented album. But I agree with a few reviews that the album was just a few years too late during the numetal fad when it had its best chance to spawn some singles.
Still a great album.
Re: Chinese Democracy now $1.99
When you get down to brass tacks, the album did not have enough single worthy songs to sustain long term success. Even if the title track or Better had caught on like Just Dance or Poker Face, where does it go from there? NOWHERE.
Like I said when it was initially released, the only shot it had singles wise was marketing This I Love, If the World,etc. to easy listening stations. Even doing that would have been a risk.
The album didn't have a monster single and there's no getting around that no matter how we approach the issue. GNR needed a Cochise or Vertigo and in ten years couldn't come up with one. Case closed.
Maybe next time....
I wasn't expecting GNR to top the Billboard hot 100 with multiple singles. I don't think anyone was. I realize singles can certainly drive album sales upward, but did Metallica have any really great/successful singles off of Death Magnetic? Then you have the last Alice In Chains record, which had a number of singles that did well on the rock charts, but that album didn't sell nearly as much as CD. NO song off of CD had a chance in hell at being a hit single with the way things were handled. I don't care if the modern day "Stairway to Heaven" was on the album, it wasn't making an impact with Axl staying in hiding.
Re: Chinese Democracy now $1.99
Ali wrote:buzzsaw wrote:For Christ's sake, read what I said. I know what I said, you apparently do not.
For the third time:
Sold big first 2 weeks. Check.
Streamed for free on myspace. Check.
As a result of those 2 points, it is safe to assume people heard the album. Check.
So if the album was amazing, all of those people that heard it would have been talking about how amazing it was, right? Right?
If you don't follow it to this point, there's no point in continuing.
Already responded in the previous post, with respect to continual marketing efforts and the dismissing of the album simply based off different sound and/or band membership (see Megadeth-Risk, Metallica-Load/Reload, U2-Pop, Zooropa, No Line On The Horizon, etc.).
If you're going to discount all that, then you're right, there is no point in continuing. Your view is IMO very myopic and not considering all the factors at play.
Ali
You said you addressed it. So did I miss where you admitted people would be talking about how amazing it is? I must have, because all I see is you making excuses as to why the album didn't sell intead of answering a simple question. We're not talking about marketing or whether the songs sound the same as the band used to sound, we're talking about people buying and/or listening to the album. Keep up here...
Did people buy and/or listen to the album when it first came out? Yes or no?
Again, asked and answered already with regards to word of mouth.
Last thing I'll say on the topic is actually a quote from CR magazine on best songs of 2000-2009:
.........................
3. Better – Guns N’ Roses
From the 2008 album Chinese Democracy. After waiting seemingly centuries for the album to be released, wasn’t it inevitable that everyone would be initially disappointed with the results? Then you start to go back and discover this gem such as this, and slowly it dawns on you that Axl’s actually made a classic – but we’ve been too prejudiced to give it a chance.
.........................
If you can't keep up, or simply choose to ignore what I wrote, I see no point in continuing this dialog.
Ali
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Chinese Democracy now $1.99
How is Catcher different? How is it the same? I don't hear anything that even remotely makes them similar.
Ok..we're going to have to agree to disagree it seems. 
Re: Chinese Democracy now $1.99
buzzsaw wrote:Ali wrote:Already responded in the previous post, with respect to continual marketing efforts and the dismissing of the album simply based off different sound and/or band membership (see Megadeth-Risk, Metallica-Load/Reload, U2-Pop, Zooropa, No Line On The Horizon, etc.).
If you're going to discount all that, then you're right, there is no point in continuing. Your view is IMO very myopic and not considering all the factors at play.
Ali
You said you addressed it. So did I miss where you admitted people would be talking about how amazing it is? I must have, because all I see is you making excuses as to why the album didn't sell intead of answering a simple question. We're not talking about marketing or whether the songs sound the same as the band used to sound, we're talking about people buying and/or listening to the album. Keep up here...
Did people buy and/or listen to the album when it first came out? Yes or no?
Again, asked and answered already with regards to word of mouth.
Last thing I'll say on the topic is actually a quote from CR magazine on best songs of 2000-2009:
.........................
3. Better – Guns N’ Roses
From the 2008 album Chinese Democracy. After waiting seemingly centuries for the album to be released, wasn’t it inevitable that everyone would be initially disappointed with the results? Then you start to go back and discover this gem such as this, and slowly it dawns on you that Axl’s actually made a classic – but we’ve been too prejudiced to give it a chance.
.........................
If you can't keep up, or simply choose to ignore what I wrote, I see no point in continuing this dialog.Ali
So you refuse to answer? I expected that. It's your first step towards the cliff. Everybody's called you on the other one too. It's over, you're wrong. Good day.
Re: Chinese Democracy now $1.99
buzzsaw wrote:How is Catcher different? How is it the same? I don't hear anything that even remotely makes them similar.
Ok..we're going to have to agree to disagree it seems.
There's nothing to agree on. One song is a relatively simple piano driven blues track. The other? Not that.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Chinese Democracy now $1.99
^ So you'd be shocked if you found out that both tracks were partially authored by the same man, because they are both so stylisticly different? I'm not saying they are the same in any kind of copyright infringment type way - but like if you can see no similarity between a song like Catcher and a Song like breakdown in terms of songwriting style then...well I dunno....like I said...agree to disagree.
Re: Chinese Democracy now $1.99
I realize singles can certainly drive album sales upward, but did Metallica have any really great/successful singles off of Death Magnetic?
While I did not like Death Magnetic, it definitely had a couple hit singles. The Day That Never Comes(only song I liked from it) charted at #1. Cyanide went #1 as well. All Nightmare Long was #9.
Then you have the last Alice In Chains record, which had a number of singles that did well on the rock charts, but that album didn't sell nearly as much as CD.
It went gold. Same as CD and it didn't have a ten year myth behind it and also didn't have the luxury of going gold before one person heard a track. Check My Brain went #1 on the rock charts. So did Your Decision. A Looking in View hit #12. They were insane for not releasing the title track as a single as that was a guaranteed #1 right there. I think it's one of their best songs in their entire discography.
CD(the song) hit #5 and then tanked immediately. Better was #18 then nosedived. Street of Dreams didn't even register on the charts.
Other than touring, AIC did little promo for that album.
Re: Chinese Democracy now $1.99
BUT AIC did not fuck with their popular formula. They went back and did classic AIC stylings with Dirt-hooks and Jar of Flies-melodies.
That was a HUGE misstep that Axl did. He didn't have a real rocker that embodied what people loved about Guns N' Roses. Considering TWAT is the Estranged of CD and This I Love, the NR of CD, Axl could've easily relied on those to be his Use Your Illusion-inspired ballads to pimp.
But he needed a new Jungle or You Could Be Mine-type of track. Desperately. It just wasn't there.
Your Decision was the mega-hit on rock radio because it sounds like something AIC could've done in 1994.
Axl did himself a huge disservice by no promo, firstly. But #2 & #3, not having a classic GN'R rocker (Tommy could've easily whipped something like this up with Richard Fortus taking the lead on riffs), and then dropping TWAT as the #2.
It might not have been Black Gives Way To Blue (that album had a hit on just about every cut, similar to Dirt), but it would've done alot for Axl had he been able to have a Nightrain II combined with TWAT to be the representatives for the CD experience. A Tommy "Izzy like" song & This I Love could've been the second wave.
