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Re: "Better" starting to gain MASSIVE steam..
war wrote:when vr had their success, gnr was not such a distant memory. People still wanted gnr but they had disbanded so the fans took vr instead cause it was better than nothing.
Young people today, although most of them may have heard the name gnr, don't know what they are missing.
you can't compare vr's success several years ago with cd's success several weeks ago and turn a blind eye to this fact, along with the a fore mentioned: increased downloading trends, increased financial restraints, and most importantly the exclusive availability to an appliance store that most people rarely visit and many need to plan road trips to do so.
C'mon. Are you seriosuly saying that when VR came out in 2004 the world remebered Gn'R and they were still on peoples mind but only 4 years later the world has forgotten about Gn'R? Fuck it's only been 2 years since VR's last album. There's no fucking way you can say "young people today" as if it's two decades since VR put out their albums. The young people today are the same people that were young when Libertad came out. And to say downloading is a massive problem today but not so in 2004 or 2007 is ridiculous. The Best Buy arguement fin but the arguement dowloading is a problem today much more so than a few years ago is lame as is the arguement that the 2-4 years since VR hit was just too long and people really have forgotten about Gn'R over that time frame is even more ridiculous.
it's not lame it's just the plain truth and smoking guns actually reminded me of something i left out as well, legal downloading. the increasing trend of downloading is more destructive now, especially to this kind of an album and more so today then 4 years ago.
war wrote:when vr had their success, gnr was not such a distant memory. People still wanted gnr but they had disbanded so the fans took vr instead cause it was better than nothing.
Young people today, although most of them may have heard the name gnr, don't know what they are missing.
No offense mate, but this is nonsense. Peope were eager to hear Guns N' Roses-related stuff in 2004 under the VR name, 13 years after their last album and they are uninterested in 2008, when the first album comes out under the name Guns N' Roses? Yet the 2002 NA GN'R tour failed miserably, because these fans were not so eager to hear GN'R cause it was 'too early' or what?
Fact is the world doesn't see this 'band' as Guns N' Roses and some strongly protest against Axl and his using the name with random guys. Nobody on Earth can identify himself with the post 1996 era GN'R, cause they're not saying anything, and if they do, it turns out to be a 'no comment' or bullshit. Axl Rose's favourite theme in 2008 wasn't his new album in 17 years, but still the 'Slash is vicious' messed-up break-up story.
none taken, for you are young and naive. 
you're actually helping prove my point. a large part of the gnr fan base saw vr as gnr with a new singer. the other half saw axl as gnr but as time went by and axl continued to make us all wait, fans stopped caring about his half an many shifted to vr and the rest to oblivion.
an easier way of putting it is axl had more fans 4 years ago than he has today and he had many more fans 8 years ago than he had four years ago and so forth.
had he released cd when contraband came out both albums would have done better but cd would have stomped all over cb, i guarantee it.
- Mikkamakka
- Rep: 217
Re: "Better" starting to gain MASSIVE steam..
Oh My God. In the past few years some blind Axl fans were predicting how the album will lead to a music revolution, change the world, bring world peace etc. Now that the illusion collapsed, they build another illusion in a different universe, take some time travel and say that CD would have been huge 4 years ago. No. It is what it is. Nothing earth-shattering. Nothing that would worth years of waiting. A solid, but forgettable album. No need to find excuses, it's Axl's job, let him to it.
Re: "Better" starting to gain MASSIVE steam..
Oh My God. In the past few years some blind Axl fans were predicting how the album will lead to a music revolution, change the world, bring world peace etc. Now that the illusion collapsed, they build another illusion in a different universe, take some time travel and say that CD would have been huge 4 years ago. No. It is what it is. Nothing earth-shattering. Nothing that would worth years of waiting. A solid, but forgettable album. No need to find excuses, it's Axl's job, let him to it.
I do agree with the " blind Axl fans" that this album would have done more damage on the charts had it been released in one of the prior new GNR eras. 1999 would have been a tad awkward and would have likely had 2008 results, but that 2001-02 period was literally begging for this record. Whether you want to label it a freak show or not, there was genuine interest in the band and album back then. It wasn't yet a pop culture joke treated with disdain. It was a real band(practically a supergroup) recording a real record people were looking forward to. It wasn't just a couple thousand nerds on the internet wanting to hear it. It was pretty much everybody.
At some point during that 03-06 silent era, it jumped the shark into irrelevancy. It still got mentions in various media outlets, but it just wasn't the same. Not sure what caused the jump and no one will ever know completely as it was likely a combination of the various absurdities.
His reemergence in 2006 was literally its last chance at any sort of pop culture redemption. Too bad he didn't take the leaks as a sign to release the record. Once he canceled that tour in late 06 to 'finish the record', it was burnt toast.
Had Axl wanted to drag this project out, a lot of the info we got last year from the likes of Brain, that great CR article detailing the making of CD, etc. should have been released during that silent era. It could have possibly kept real interest alive by getting that info out to the general public in almost real time updates.
The album in 2001 would still be lacking the hits that its lacking today. However, the songs would have went over better simply because they fit in more with that time frame. Also, the album would have had a better chance to be taken in as a whole since everything wasn't completely fueled by a short attention span public hungry for the latest catchy and disposable single they could download from Itunes or as a ringtone.
In 2008, Better is "gaining massive steam" on the bottom of a rock chart. In 2001, it would have been gaining that steam on top 40 radio.
Not trying to 'make excuses' as I will quickly call a spade a spade and wasn't massively impressed with the overall record myself, but there isn't really any point in denying that this album would have had a better and longer shelf life had it been released in the time frame it was recorded.
Re: "Better" starting to gain MASSIVE steam..
At some point during that 03-06 silent era, it jumped the shark into irrelevancy. It still got mentions in various media outlets, but it just wasn't the same. Not sure what caused the jump and no one will ever know completely as it was likely a combination of the various absurdities.
I suspect the price tag for the record 10+ million had something to do with it. In addition, since 2000 (or 2001) the record was always "rumored" to be released. You can only "cry wolf" for so long until people stop paying attention altogether and treat it as a joke. The reality is that when people (not the diehard fanbase but just ordinary Joe) hear that a record has taken up millions to make and still hasn't been released they kind of shake their head and say that's a prime example of overindulgence.
Once he canceled that tour in late 06 to 'finish the record', it was burnt toast.
See previous response for answer to this point.
Had Axl wanted to drag this project out, a lot of the info we got last year from the likes of Brain, that great CR article detailing the making of CD, etc. should have been released during that silent era. It could have possibly kept real interest alive by getting that info out to the general public in almost real time updates.
I'd take the contrarian viewpoint the mystery and aura of this record was what kept interest for so long. If the leaks had happened in 2001 or 2002 would the anticipation have been as much?
The album in 2001 would still be lacking the hits that its lacking today. However, the songs would have went over better simply because they fit in more with that time frame.
I'll agree as it would have led to less overproduction and much better flowing songs that don't sound cut and pasted to death. I think that a Better version 2001 and a quality produced version of the original Catcher in the Rye with Brian May could have been the hits that the band was seeking though.
Re: "Better" starting to gain MASSIVE steam..
Oh My God. In the past few years some blind Axl fans were predicting how the album will lead to a music revolution, change the world, bring world peace etc. Now that the illusion collapsed, they build another illusion in a different universe, take some time travel and say that CD would have been huge 4 years ago. No. It is what it is. Nothing earth-shattering. Nothing that would worth years of waiting. A solid, but forgettable album. No need to find excuses, it's Axl's job, let him to it.
i hope yur not talking about me - i've been one hundred percent objective from the beginning, axl is to blame for cd underachieving on the charts but it's his record. he can do whatever the fuck he wants to with it. had the album been full of songs like scraped it probably would have sold about the same so nobody's protecting axl or nutswinging when they state facts like cd would have sold better had it been an exclusive to wal mart. had it contained more radio friendly songs it would have also done better out of the gate but not to the same degree as if it were made available to a broader range of shoppers and released 5 years ago. people should be able to discuss the business or marketing successes and failures of gnr without being called "blind axl fans".
thanks james for backing my point about the album coming out at the wrong time.
- Mikkamakka
- Rep: 217
Re: "Better" starting to gain MASSIVE steam..
It's a joke that the timing was 'perfect' for VR and 'very bad' for Axl. That's my point. I agree that the quality of music had a little to no effect to the sales, although it goes for both those who bought it and those who didn't. The 'CD fits in more in 2001' is a weak point, since it only proves how far it is from being a timeless album. It's good, but nothing special, with some serious problems (music wise). I'm not talking about the Axl Rose factor that ruins everything all the time.
Re: "Better" starting to gain MASSIVE steam..
The 'CD fits in more in 2001' is a weak point, since it only proves how far it is from being a timeless album.
It isn't a weak point. Its a fact, 99.9% of the record was recorded in the 99-01 time frame. Can you imagine VR recording Contraband in 2004 but waiting until 2011 to release it? Would you consider its release in 2004 "weak" and think they should have waited until 2011?
It's a joke that the timing was 'perfect' for VR and 'very bad' for Axl.
The timing was perfect for VR. They had a huge buzz with "the Project", and they capitalized on it quickly. They didn't twiddle their thumbs for a decade. They did it quickly, and the few decent songs they recorded became hits.
How much more perfect could the timing have been for VR?
If the leaks had happened in 2001 or 2002 would the anticipation have been as much?
Had a leak happened then, his hand would have been forced by Uni. No one would have stuck around for 7 more years for the record.
- FlashFlood
- Rep: 55
Re: "Better" starting to gain MASSIVE steam..
2006 had a HUGE buzz, and in fact, it was even buzzier than 2002. Those Hammerstein shows had incredible buzz, and the US tour wasnt plagued by the cancellations of 2002. Furthermore, Axl was in tip-top shape, rivaling his 1992-93 performances. Should have been released in 2006 with the tour, would be much more successful, and more successful than a November 2002 release.
Re: "Better" starting to gain MASSIVE steam..
2006 had a HUGE buzz, and in fact, it was even buzzier than 2002. Those Hammerstein shows had incredible buzz, and the US tour wasnt plagued by the cancellations of 2002. Furthermore, Axl was in tip-top shape, rivaling his 1992-93 performances. Should have been released in 2006 with the tour, would be much more successful, and more successful than a November 2002 release.
Kida sad that all we're left with now is coulda shoulda woulda's:headbang:
- FlashFlood
- Rep: 55
Re: "Better" starting to gain MASSIVE steam..
agreed, but who knows what has really happened? was it all axls fault that it wasnt released til now? nobody knows, and so its always gonna be shoulda coulda woulda
