Why do people tend to take Tommy's word for everything?

sp1at

It was about the internet, changing music tastes and the money invested in CD. The industry as a whole changed during the making of CD and I think both sides came out on top, but it took a generation to figure out.

AgesOfTheIce

Sky Dog wrote:

We don’t know the answer to that. But, to say Tommy and Brain are essentially lying is ludicrous. Any and all objective evidence shows them having at least 30 or more songs that were worked on for at least 2 albums.

I'm not saying they are lying so much as that people are misinterpreting their words. We know there were 30+ instrumentals worked on. That doesn't mean 30+ songs that Axl recorded vocals on. I think when Tommy said there are 22 completed unreleased tracks he meant completed instrumentals, the same way Slash, Duff and Matt would talk about all the songs they had done in 1996 and then years later clarified that Axl had recorded nothing on any of them. To be clear, I'm not saying I believe Axl recorded nothing on the 22 CD era instrumentals left, I just think it's probably more somewhere in the vicinity of 4-8 songs that he finished.

As for Brain, when he was on the Appetite For Distortion podcast a few years back and talked about writing the music for Seven and The General, he said "I think Axl sang on The General". This to me implies that when Brain talks about the songs he worked on he also means instrumentals.

Shacklermyrye

He always seemed quite a straight shooter to be fair, even if he said something that later turned out not to happen I believed he believed it when he said it. Never got the sense he was trying to palm people off with what they wanted to hear like others may have done.

polluxlm

Merck talked about Axl's "muse" back in 2006 and said it wasn't up to Axl if that muse was present or not. Suggesting he wanted to record but lacked inspiration to create anything good. Unfortunately that situation might be more relevant for the big gun instrumentals, like Oklahoma, because with those the pressure was all the greater for Axl to add vocals that could live up to the epicness of the song.

Better, Sorry vocals were added after the locker leaks sessions, and there was also reportedly some work done by Axl in 06/07, but apart from that I think he has felt no need to go into a studio. Creatively he's done for and he knows it.

Shacklermyrye

polluxlm wrote:

Merck talked about Axl's "muse" back in 2006 and said it wasn't up to Axl if that muse was present or not. Suggesting he wanted to record but lacked inspiration to create anything good. Unfortunately that situation might be more relevant for the big gun instrumentals, like Oklahoma, because with those the pressure was all the greater for Axl to add vocals that could live up to the epicness of the song.
Better, Sorry vocals were added after the locker leaks sessions, and there was also reportedly some work done by Axl in 06/07, but apart from that I think he has felt no need to go into a studio. Creatively he's done for and he knows it.

Could be true however Merk was very experienced even at that stage. By which I mean saying "it isn't up to Axl if that muse is present or not" is a quite slick way to acknowlegde that things may not be where they want them to be and yet also deftly deflects the blame from Axl, even painting him in a way to make people feel sorry for the guy.

I mean merck managed Morrissey that guy knew how to deal with difficult people, at least all the way up until he didn't.

TIL remix vocals sound possibly 2010'ish to me but who knows

Soul monster is only an instrumental in the sense that's how we have heard it from the locker leaks and probably how we think of it due to that.

In reality Axl said himself in the forum chats that it has vocals, that he recorded them around christmas and that there either "dark" or "heavy" (i forget the wording)

Oklahoma was on a setlist at some point in the early 2000's and I doubt it would be without vocals. Also in soundchecks last year they were running through a song that sounded quite like it, I can believe that it has vocals and that it may even be one of the songs Slash and Duff have recorded on.

polluxlm

You're right and I don't like to peddle the myth that it was Axl holding CD back. I think it has been established that it was the label that refused to release it until Azoff managed to secure a deal for them to cut their losses. The leaks probably helped in that regard too, either they release the album now and get something out of it, or the whole thing would eventually leak and they would get nothing. Axl was caught in the middle of this game and I think that is what he is referring to when he says the struggles with CD was the worst of his life. He wanted the thing out there in 2001, maybe earlier, but the labels opposition and the media hostility made it into a living nightmare.

That being said there are no vocals for Oklahoma in the locker leaks. Very possible he added them later considering what you mention, but why wasn't it already finished? The song dated back years and judging by how good the instrumental is you would think it would be a priority to include on your comeback album. That same can be said about CD. Why isn't a song like Oklahoma included there? We say CD is a leaks album, and yes it mostly is, but there are also some non leaks on there. Robin Finck says he persuaded Axl to add TIL on the album, so apparently it wasn't just the record company making those decisions. Why didn't Axl include any of the mythical big guns to boost his chances of success? Instead we get Shackler and Scraped. New songs, but not very good ones.

It gets worse when you consider Hard Skool. They decided to splice in some half done vocals from Eye on You, because obviously that song was never completed beyond its locker leaks form, and there was no unheard Axl material to take it from either, and apparently it was completely out of the question for Axl to do any new vocals. With the release of Absurd and Hard Skool we are again facing a "leaks album". Is that because they were leaked, or is it because most of Axl's material has already leaked and that's all we are going to get?

He talks about doing all these vocals but where is the evidence? To me it seems he had a major creative burst in 99-01 which basically gave us CD, and then a smaller burst in 06-07 which gave us Better, Sorry, Scraped, Shackler, If the World etc. Some good songs there, but clearly the 99-01 period is superior.

AgesOfTheIce

Shacklermyrye wrote:

polluxlm wrote:
Merck talked about Axl's "muse" back in 2006 and said it wasn't up to Axl if that muse was present or not. Suggesting he wanted to record but lacked inspiration to create anything good. Unfortunately that situation might be more relevant for the big gun instrumentals, like Oklahoma, because with those the pressure was all the greater for Axl to add vocals that could live up to the epicness of the song.
Better, Sorry vocals were added after the locker leaks sessions, and there was also reportedly some work done by Axl in 06/07, but apart from that I think he has felt no need to go into a studio. Creatively he's done for and he knows it.
Could be true however Merk was very experienced even at that stage. By which I mean saying "it isn't up to Axl if that muse is present or not" is a quite slick way to acknowlegde that things may not be where they want them to be and yet also deftly deflects the blame from Axl, even painting him in a way to make people feel sorry for the guy.
I mean merck managed Morrissey that guy knew how to deal with difficult people, at least all the way up until he didn't.
TIL remix vocals sound possibly 2010'ish to me but who knows
Soul monster is only an instrumental in the sense that's how we have heard it from the locker leaks and probably how we think of it due to that.
In reality Axl said himself in the forum chats that it has vocals, that he recorded them around christmas and that there either "dark" or "heavy" (i forget the wording)
Oklahoma was on a setlist at some point in the early 2000's and I doubt it would be without vocals. Also in soundchecks last year they were running through a song that sounded quite like it, I can believe that it has vocals and that it may even be one of the songs Slash and Duff have recorded on.

Axl may have had lyrics written for Oklahoma, but that doesn't mean they were necessarily recorded. For example, it appears Axl may have never have laid down a studio version of Silkworms with the "What can I do, with a bitch like you" chorus in, despite playing it live several times. The fact that Oklahoma was pulled from the setlist, and that Axl later changed the title, means he may have considered it unfinished and not up to recording standards at that point. And if he didn't record vocals for it during the CD era, we're probably screwed since he doesn't appear interested in recording new vocals in general these days.

I think the soundcheck clip sounds vaguely like it, but not that much. Just my opinion though.

Shacklermyrye

polluxlm wrote:

.
That being said there are no vocals for Oklahoma in the locker leaks. Very possible he added them later considering what you mention, but why wasn't it already finished? The song dated back years and judging by how good the instrumental is you would think it would be a priority to include on your comeback album..

I gotta sleep lol so i'll just stick to this bit for now..

But as to why wasn't it finished? Probably the same reason YCBM or Dont Cry wasn't on AFD, it wasn't ready. I'm not just saying it's an Axl time thing although I'm glad he didn't rush the two examples i just mentioned and let them be untill he felt they were ready.

Thing is if you look at pretty much everything they have released there are always songs held back for future releases. Its not a modern thing, like you say TIL came out in 2008 but was around in 1991. On UYI YCBM Dont Cry November Rain Back Off bitch were all around years before but held back as they were not "ready"

Hell even AFD had songs on it that had been around for years. People draw a clear deliniation between era's but some patterns are consistent, and the pattern of keeping songs on the back burner has been a constant throughout there entire history.
I remember Sorum saying the last song he worked on was I Ain't Goin Down in an interview a few years back, which obviously implies they went back to it again post UYI.

Oklaholma is so old that it was said to be the first song they walked in the studio with according to https://warmaudio.com/artist-david-dominguez/ They came in with it in January 1998. In 25 years I can believe they did it, but held it back for CD2 I just hope I hear it without Hardskool/Absurd production

monkeychow

Slightly off topic but I hope they reuse the verses of "Eye on You" as well.

I know people make fun of the "mac daddy" part but the melody of the other lyrics aside from that part is awesome.

I also agree that TIL dance remix version has 2009-2010 style vocals - the timbre of the screams and the way he adds "yeaaaahhh" into the end of them was a thing he was doing live in that era. Then again I guess they are not wildly dissimilar from the twat/irs screams recorded years earlier either so maybe there's just dozens of versions of TIL somewhere from earlier.

Songs like State of Grace and Eye on You give me hope though as they seem a different style than a lot of the other tracks and sort of appeared out of nowhere. I kinda hope there's other songs like that.

Shacklermyrye

monkeychow wrote:

Slightly off topic but I hope they reuse the verses of "Eye on You" as well.
I know people make fun of the "mac daddy" part but the melody of the other lyrics aside from that part is awesome.
I also agree that TIL dance remix version has 2009-2010 style vocals - the timbre of the screams and the way he adds "yeaaaahhh" into the end of them was a thing he was doing live in that era. Then again I guess they are not wildly dissimilar from the twat/irs screams recorded years earlier either so maybe there's just dozens of versions of TIL somewhere from earlier.
Songs like State of Grace and Eye on You give me hope though as they seem a different style than a lot of the other tracks and sort of appeared out of nowhere. I kinda hope there's other songs like that.

I wonder if the Mac Daddy line was just a placeholder, lol I hope so, as an all round song though I like it.

If you listen to the isolated vocals of that remix it really screams 2010 era voice. Certainly way different to locker leak era vocals.

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