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Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....
I wanted to start a new thread but as you know, we currently have glitches up the ying yang....
I was reading some articles about Gilby last night and it reminded me of this.
I searched and Sky Dog had quoted the statement, so I'll bump this thread.
Of course then there is the real first reference to Axl's megalomania and two album plan.....
LIVE!!! from "Burning Hills", California...
Due to overwhelming enthusiasm and that DIVE IN AND FIND THE MONKEY attitude..
#1. There will NOT be a Guns N' Roses tour.
#2. There will NOT be an official Guns N' Roses web site.
#3. There will NOT be any NEW Guns N' Roses videos.
#4. There will NOT be any new Guns N' Roses involved merchandise.
#5. There will NOT be a Guns N' Roses FAN CLUB.
#6. There will be a new Guns N' Roses 12 song minimum Recording with
three original "B" sides.NOTE: If all goes well this will be immediately repeated.
#7. Moreover - Slash will not be involved in any new Guns N' Roses endeavors,
as he has not been musically involved with Guns N' Roses, since April 1994
with the exception of a BRIEF feel period with Zakk Wylde and a 2 week trial (? - not sure about the word there)
period with Guns N' Roses in the fall of 95. He (Slash) has been OFFICIALLY
and LEGALLY outside of the Guns N' Roses Partnreship since December 31, 1995.You're Fuckin Crazy is right!
This is the interesting part....
Slash will not be involved in any new Guns N' Roses endeavors,
as he has not been musically involved with Guns N' Roses, since April 1994
with the exception of a BRIEF feel period with Zakk Wylde and a 2 week trial
He's confused about the timeline. I think he's mixing up Gilby's departure with Slash.
Slash was involved in the recording of Sympathy for the Devil.... which was recorded in October 94 and released in December.
The blow-up over Snakepit hadn't even happened yet....so how in the hell is he gone already?
The "brief feel" and "2 week trial" would've happened summer/fall 95....and I'm not trusting his timeline on those trial periods. That's not long enough to put together the material they were working on...and we have comments from Slash, Duff, and Matt talking about it in CD Whispers backing this up.
Then you gotta factor in that brief moment in time when Izzy almost comes back. After this is when we hear the mocking statements about Axl wanting to make a Pearl Jam record.
Gilby did an interview about meeting Axl at the Cat Club in 2000 when they hung out and performed together. Gilby said Axl was still hung up over the Snakepit issue....and accused Gilby of him and Slash trying to sabotage Axl/GNR. Gilby had to tell him, "No...we weren't sabotaging you. We wanted to do a GNR record but since it wasn't happening, we did Snakepit."
It's fucked up how everything spiraled out of control over that damn Snakepit album.
Everything up until that point was fixable.... Gilby's firing, which still makes little sense...and Paul Huge's arrival.
#1. There will NOT be a Guns N' Roses tour.#2. There will NOT be an official Guns N' Roses web site.
#3. There will NOT be any NEW Guns N' Roses videos.
#4. There will NOT be any new Guns N' Roses involved merchandise.
#5. There will NOT be a Guns N' Roses FAN CLUB.
No offense to Axl, but.....
That is mental illness, either shitty management or none at all, and his new gang of sycophants influencing him.
It also massively contradicts the next statement....
#6. There will be a new Guns N' Roses 12 song minimum Recording with
three original "B" sides.
No fan club, merch, website, video, or tour...
But there's gonna be a 12 song minimum album with 3 B sides?
What....did you turn into The fucking Beatles in the few months since Slash left?
Pure, unfiltered megalomania and I bet he cringes when he remembers this.
Instead of all this nonsense....olive branches should've been extended.
Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....
Clearly not a guy who is in a good headspace at that time at all. Got to keep in mind he's got the lawsuit from his ex-wife at this time in the mid 90s with the assault allegations (which based on everything that we've heard and know about him were probably true).
https://apnews.com/article/06f41276c1dc … 849691b418
Outside of band shit, doesn't look like his personal life from 93-96 is going that great either.
Sorum's and Duff's books probably give the most accurate timelines of this period that we have. Duff was clean and clear by 95 and Sorum whilst he was still partying was never as down in a hole as Slash. Their accounts have Slash involved and basically in and out of the band in 96. Shit was still happening at that point. Axl's just off his head in that rant.
Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....
Clearly not a guy who is in a good headspace at that time at all.
It reinforces the fact he should not have been trying to carry the weight of the band on his shoulders while rebuilding it around himself.
After just twiddling their thumbs, Duff and Matt do the same exact thing Slash did a year earlier.... Neurotic Outsiders instead of Snakepit.
What were they thinking?
They just saw what happened when Slash went off to do his own thing. A year later, they're both gone.
They all needed a break. Slash and Gilby do Snakepit, Duff and Matt do Neurotic Outsiders, Axl does whatever...and then you regroup in 1997 and rejoin Metallica, U2, The Stones, and Pearl Jam as the monster bands pushing albums on world tours.
You're right...his personal life was impacting his career at the point. In one of Duff's statements at the time, he warned everyone about the sycophants surrounding Axl...and Slash got his own little dig in on Beggars and Hangers On.....
Is that a noose...or a wedding band
One more thing about his list above....
The five things he says will NOT happen.... actually happen.
The one thing he says WILL happen....does not.
At least for twelve more years anyways.
Edit
I know you'll say they didn't do videos. He gave the ok for the Jungle vid pushing Live Era in 99 so it counts.
- Cerulean wind
- Rep: -6
Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....
James wrote:This was heavily mocked over the years.... especially as they kept performing the same small set of songs on the next CD tour.
Hindsight appears to actually vindicate him on this. To any new/younger fans here, he's not really referring to a second album here although obviously he had at different points. He's including B sides.
Since he said this in 2002, we now know of the Village Sessions obviously and factor in Fortus statements about Axl working on vocals briefly in 2001 and 2002, and very little afterwards...more songs are in contention or as the saying goes....A listed.
Let's have a look....
--
Madagascar
TWAT
Atlas Shrugged
Perhaps
Prostitute
Riad
Catcher in the Rye
Chinese Democracy
The Blues
Silkworms
Oh My God
IRS
Oklahoma
If The World
Hardschool
State of Grace
This I Love
Going Down---
That's 18. I included Oh My God because they performed it in that timeframe and was at least briefly considered to be in contention for the album.
I included Oklahoma because it's a finished track at this point due to being the alternate at HOB.
Now let's see the rest....
--
The General
Quick Song
Soul Monster
Zodiac
Better
Circus Maximus/Ides of March
Sorry
Thyme
Scraped
Shackler's Revenge--
There's 10.....and there's still more material that can replace various tracks listed above.
I certainly agree with that. His 180 regarding OMG reinforces this point as well.
Hell...those songs had been discussed and heard by various people a few years before they were performed on tour.
They were clearly A list tracks.
In a post Village Sessions leak world, it brings up an issue we had discussed during the prime of the HTGTH forum....
If he truly had that many songs ready(28), why in the hell did he stick to pushing that same small batch of songs?
In 2001:
Chinese Democracy
The Blues
Madagascar
Riad
Silkworms
Oh My GodIn the context of 2000-01...this isn't bad. He's reintroducing GNR to the world on the verge of what at the time felt like a legitimate comeback.
Now it's open to debate whether those were the right songs to get things moving. Having said that, the actual number of new songs... while hardcores may want more....was pretty much right on the money with other major acts promoting a new album on tour.
Fast forward a year to the bizarre fiasco of 2002....
Three of those songs have been dropped!
Nothing new took their place.
Why?
I don't really buy the bootleg excuse fans usually trot out. If that is the correct stance, why perform ANY new material?
Whatever the reason, it became a pattern throughout the entire saga. Every time the tour starts dragging on with little positive press and no forward movement, CD tracks start disappearing in favor of old chestnuts.
It became a form of bait and switch.
It's also the time when many hardcore fans, including me, started questioning how much material that they really had to work with.
When a song like Silkworms is being dropped with no replacement, it doesn't inspire confidence in your material.
We now know what he had.
I have always believed that the Rio 2001 setlist should've been CD heavy. It was the perfect moment to solidify new GNR as its own entity. It should've had a similar approach as Audioslave....play the big hits but hit the audience over the head with your new stuff. It lets everyone know what the deal is now.
The middle ground which led to bait and switch was the wrong approach.
We know Bucket was an advocate for this type of push. It's not surprising that he lost interest quickly.
Once 2002 rolls around, a fresh set of songs was definitely needed.
CD - it's the title track. It stays.
The Blues - The song had clearly been worked on since the previous year's shows. It stays.
Oklahoma - You're dropping Riad on this tour. Replace it with the song chosen as its alternate at last year's HOB show.
IRS - You've dropped Silkworms which never returns. Replace it with this.
If the World - Oh My God has been dropped. Along with Silkworms, a pattern emerges....the industrial/techno stuff has been shelved. Include this ...it fits and it's one of the best songs you have. It's also worthy of appearing on a soundtrack. If not picking If the World, TWAT also fits here.
Madagascar - It's an important song to him. It stays.
Such simple changes improve things immensely. The hardcores rally around him, new songs mean more press, potential for an album is taken more seriously, etc.
_________________________________________________________________________
I really have that chronologhy in my mind, for some songs.
1998: [Instrumental early CD]
"Madagascar" (Only song with vocals)
"Prostitute"
"T.W.A.T"
"Hard School"
"Riad N' The Bedouins"
"Catcher In The Rye"
"Chinese Democracy"
"Oklahoma"
"The Blues"
"Perhaps"
"Atlas Shrugged"
"Ides Of March"
"Thyme"
----------------------------
1999 - 2000: [All songs with vocals / Sean Beavan production / first rejected CD]
"Madagascar"
"Prostitute"
"T.W.A.T."
"Hard School"
"Riad N' The Bedouins"
"Catcher In The Rye"
"Chinese Democracy"
"Oklahoma" [Instrumental]
"The Blues"
"Perhaps"
"Atlas Shrugged"
"Silkworms"
"If The World"
"Eye On You"
"State Of Grace"
"I.R.S."
"Goin' Down"
"Tommy Home Demo#1"
"Oh My God"
"Thyme" [Instrumental]
"P.R.L." [Instrumental]
"Quick Song" [Guide vocals]
"Nothin'" [Guide vocals]
"I'm Sorry" [Instrumental]
"Zodiac 13" [Instrumental]
"Moustache" [Instrumental]
"Tonto" [Instrumental]
"Shackler's Revenge / Dub Suplex / Real Doll" [Instrumental]
"Billionaire" [Instrumental]
"Devious Bastard" [Instrumental]
"Dummy" [Instrumental]
"Me & My Elvis" [Instrumental]
"D Tune / Circus Maximus" [Instrumental]
"Curly Shuffle" [Instrumental]
"As It Began" [Instrumental]
"Rebel" [Instrumental]
"Three Dollar Pyramid" [Instrumental]
"Prom Violence" [Instrumental]
"Inside Out" [Instrumental]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
2001 - 2002: [Re-recorded parts / New versions / RTB production / More vocals / Beltrami work in october 2002]
"Madagascar" [Buckmaster orchestra]
"Prostitute" [Buckmaster orchestra]
"There Was A Time" [Extended by BH solo] [Buckmaster orchestra] [Renamed from "TWAT"]
"Hard School"
"Riad N' The Bedouins"
"Catcher In The Rye"
"Chinese Democracy" [Extended by BH solo]
"Berlin" [Renamed from "Oklahoma"]
"The Blues" [Buckmaster orchestra]
"Perhaps" [Buckmaster orchestra??]
"Atlas Shrugged" [Buckmaster orchestra??]
"Silkworms" [Complete re-recording]
"If The World"
"State Of Grace"
"I.R.S."
"Oh My God"
"Going Down" [Complete re-recording] [Renamed from "Goin' Down"]
"Thyme" [Instrumental] [Beltrami orchestra]
"Quick Song" [Guide vocals] [Extended by BH solo]
"Zodiac" [Instrumental] [Renamed from "Zodiac 13"]
"Sorry For You" [Instrumental] [Renamed from "I'm Sorry"
"Moustache" [Instrumental]
"Tonto" [Instrumental]
"Shackler's Revenge / Dub Suplex / Real Doll" [Instrumental]
"The General" [Instrumental] [Beltrami orchestra] [Renamed from "Billionaire"]
"Devious Bastard" [Instrumental]
"100 Cuban Skies" [Renamed from "Dummy"]
"Leave Me Alone" [Instrumental] [Beltrami orchestra] [Renamed from "Me & My Elvis"]
"7" [Instrumental] [Beltrami orchestra] [Renamed from "D Tune / Circus Maximus"]
"Curly Shuffle" [Instrumental]
"As It Began" [Instrumental]
"Rebel" [Instrumental]
"Better" [Renamed from "Three Dollar Pyramid"]
"Prom Violence"
"P.R.L." [Scrapped song??] [Instrumental]
"Eye On You" [Scrapped song??]
"Nothin'" [Scrapped song??] [Guide vocals]
"Tommy Home Demo #1" [Scrapped song?]
"Inside Out" [Scrapped song??] [Instrumental]
------------------------------
2003 - 2005: [More vocals / New "BH" tracks / last touches, ready-to-go, ultimate CD]
"Madagascar"
"Prostitute"
"There Was A Time"
"Hard School"
"Riad N' The Bedouins"
"Catcher In The Rye"
"Chinese Democracy"
"Berlin"
"The Blues"
"Perhaps"
"Atlas Shrugged"
"Silkworms"
"If The World"
"State Of Grace"
"I.R.S."
"Oh My God"
"Going Down"
"Sorry For You" [Instrumental]
"Tonto" [Instrumental]
"Shackler's Revenge" [Instrumental] [Frankesteined track]
"The General"
"Cuban Skies" [Renamed from "100 Cuban Skies"]
"Elvis Presley & The Monster Of Soul" [Renamed from "Leave Me Alone"]
"7"
"Better"
"The Lies They Tell" [Instrumental] [Frankesteined track
"This I Love" [Instrumental]
"Thyme" [Instrumental] [Scrapped song??]
"Quick Song" [Guide vocals] [Scrapped song??]
"Zodiac" [Guide vocals] [Scrapped song??]
"Moustache" [Instrumental] [Scrapped song??]
"Devious Bastard" [Instrumental] [Scrapped song??]
"Curly Shuffle" [Instrumental] [Scrapped song??]
"As It Began" [Instrumental] [Scrapped song??]
"Rebel" [Instrumental] [Scrapped song??]
"Prom Violence" [Instrumental] [Scrapped song??]
-------------------------------------------
2006 - ???: [Released tracks / new vocals / shelved songs]
Released songs - all songs with vocals:
"Chinese Democracy"
"Shackler's Revenge"
"Better"
"Street Of Dreams" [Renamed from "Stardust" and "The Blues"
"If The World"
"There Was A Time"
"Catcher In The Rye"
"Scrapped" [Renamed from "The Lies They Tell"]
"Riad N' The Bedouins"
"Sorry" [Renamed from "Sorry For You"
"I.R.S."
"Madagascar"
"This I Love"
"Prostitute"
Unreleased songs - not known if all tracks have vocals:
"Oh My God"
"Atlas Shrugged"
"Perhaps"
"Silkworms"
"Going Down"
"Hard School"
"Berlin"
"State Of Grace"
"Tonto"
"The General"
"Cuban Skies"
"Soul Monster" [Renamed from "Elvis Presley & The Monster Of Soul"]
"7"
"Light My Fire (Monstrosity)"
----------------------------------------------
TL;TR: 14 released songs / 14 unreleased finished songs.
Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....
I wanted to start a new thread but as you know, we currently have glitches up the ying yang....
I was reading some articles about Gilby last night and it reminded me of this.
I searched and Sky Dog had quoted the statement, so I'll bump this thread.
Sky Dog wrote:Of course then there is the real first reference to Axl's megalomania and two album plan.....
LIVE!!! from "Burning Hills", California...
Due to overwhelming enthusiasm and that DIVE IN AND FIND THE MONKEY attitude..
#1. There will NOT be a Guns N' Roses tour.
#2. There will NOT be an official Guns N' Roses web site.
#3. There will NOT be any NEW Guns N' Roses videos.
#4. There will NOT be any new Guns N' Roses involved merchandise.
#5. There will NOT be a Guns N' Roses FAN CLUB.
#6. There will be a new Guns N' Roses 12 song minimum Recording with
three original "B" sides.NOTE: If all goes well this will be immediately repeated.
#7. Moreover - Slash will not be involved in any new Guns N' Roses endeavors,
as he has not been musically involved with Guns N' Roses, since April 1994
with the exception of a BRIEF feel period with Zakk Wylde and a 2 week trial (? - not sure about the word there)
period with Guns N' Roses in the fall of 95. He (Slash) has been OFFICIALLY
and LEGALLY outside of the Guns N' Roses Partnreship since December 31, 1995.You're Fuckin Crazy is right!
This is the interesting part....
Slash will not be involved in any new Guns N' Roses endeavors,
as he has not been musically involved with Guns N' Roses, since April 1994
with the exception of a BRIEF feel period with Zakk Wylde and a 2 week trialHe's confused about the timeline. I think he's mixing up Gilby's departure with Slash.
Slash was involved in the recording of Sympathy for the Devil.... which was recorded in October 94 and released in December.
The blow-up over Snakepit hadn't even happened yet....so how in the hell is he gone already?
The "brief feel" and "2 week trial" would've happened summer/fall 95....and I'm not trusting his timeline on those trial periods. That's not long enough to put together the material they were working on...and we have comments from Slash, Duff, and Matt talking about it in CD Whispers backing this up.
Then you gotta factor in that brief moment in time when Izzy almost comes back. After this is when we hear the mocking statements about Axl wanting to make a Pearl Jam record.
Gilby did an interview about meeting Axl at the Cat Club in 2000 when they hung out and performed together. Gilby said Axl was still hung up over the Snakepit issue....and accused Gilby of him and Slash trying to sabotage Axl/GNR. Gilby had to tell him, "No...we weren't sabotaging you. We wanted to do a GNR record but since it wasn't happening, we did Snakepit."
It's fucked up how everything spiraled out of control over that damn Snakepit album.
Everything up until that point was fixable.... Gilby's firing, which still makes little sense...and Paul Huge's arrival.
If I may put my two cents in this, I think part of the timeline confusion is just due to minor mistakes in the transcription of Axl's fax. It doesn't seem that the fax was sent anywhere else besides MTV, so, from what I understand, the text that has been circulating online is the result of a transcription directly from the MTV News video:
I gave it a try and transcribed the [quite blurry] screenshots, and here is my take (the parts I have replaced or added are in red):
Due to overwhelming enthusiasm, and that "DIVE IN AND FIND THE MONKEY" attitude....
#1. There will NOT be a Guns N' Roses tour.
#2. There will NOT be an official Guns N' Roses web site.
#3. There will NOT be any NEW Guns N' Roses videos.
#4. There will NOT be any new Guns N' Roses involved merhandise.
#5. There will NOT be a Guns N' Roses Fan Club.
#6. There will be a new Guns N' Roses 12 song minimum recording with three original "B" sides.
NOTE: If all goes well this will be immediately repeated.
#7. However*******Slash will not be involved in any new Guns N' Roses
endeavors as he has not been musically involved with Guns N" Roses since April 1994 with the exception of a BRIEF trial period with Zakk Wylde and a 2 week trial period with Guns N' Roses in the fall of1996. He (Slash) has been "OFFICIALLY and LEGALLY" outside of the Guns N' Roses Partnership since December 31, 1995.***************************************************
Nothing here is Subject To Change
Without A PERMANENT SUSPENSION
Of the "Pseudo Studio Musician Work Ethic"SINCERELY,
W. Axl Rosec.c. Big FD Ent., Inc.
Mike "Duff" McKagan
Matt Sorum
The screenshots are so blurry that it's not clear if it says "fall of 1995" or "fall of 1996", but it makes more sense that it said 1996, as there aren't any sources confirming that any band session took place in the fall of 1995 - on the contrary, there is a Los Angeles Times article (with a Goldstein interview) from around that time reporting that the members were supposedly writing separately:
Guns N' Roses' three principals--singer Axl Rose, guitarist Slash and bassist Duff McKagan--are separately writing new songs for the group with plans to convene in the studio in January (Los Angeles Times, Dec. 10, 1995)
Moreover, it doesn't seem plausible that there were any band sessions in the months after Axl's resignation letter (Aug. 31, 1995 - just at the time Slash returned from his Snakepit tour), as negotiations started between the legal teams (which led to the "trial contract").
But even with these small corrections, there are still a couple of problems with Axl's timeline.
One is indeed the Sympathy for the Devil recording (was it that he forgot about it or that it didn't count to him as a session?)
The other is that it seems that there were some brief sessions in the summer/early fall of 1994 with Paul Huge, simultaneously with Slash's work on the Snakepit record (based on contemporary sources, Slash had already recorded the basic tracks by early July, and in July-August he found Dover and recorded the vocals - the album was mixed in early September). Slash's book is not helpful with the timeline at all. He mentions sessions at the Complex after Gilby's departure, but it's not clear if he's talking about 1994 or 1996. There were definitely rehearsals with Huge in Slash's place, but there is this source about studio sessions, too:
Since releasing the mildly received “Spaghetti Incident?" album last year, Guns N’ Roses have rivaled only Tom and Roseanne in breakup gossip. Contrary to reports of their demise in several respectable newspapers and magazines, however, the hard rockers have been quietly convening at night for three months at the Complex Studio in West Los Angeles.
Singer Axl Rose, guitarist Slash, bassist Duff McKagan, keyboardist Dizzy Reed and drummer Matt Sorum have been writing and rehearsing songs said to be “a little bit more moody" than previous material, according to a source close to the band.
The big news is that Gilby Clarke is no longer in the group. The original plan was for Clarke to promote his current solo album on Virgin Records, “Pawn Shop Guitars," then tour with GN’R. However, Clarke (who replaced guitarist Izzy Stradlin in 1991) has apparently fallen out with Rose and will not return.
Evidently Rose rejected a tape of songs Clarke and Slash wrote and recorded together this spring. Ever since, Clarke has expressed ambivalence about his future in the fold during interviews and even railed out against his imponderably volatile former boss to Britain’s Kerrang! magazine.
Clarke’s replacement has not been decided, although Rose is pushing for a hometown friend from Indiana, Paul Huge (pronounced Oo-gee). Huge, described as resembling a “thinner, lighter-haired Axl," has been brought by Rose into the writing sessions. [...] Slash took time off from preproduction with GN’R to mix an eponymous album by his solo band, Snake Pit, featuring Clarke, Sorum, Reed, singer Eric Dover and Alice In Chains’ bassist Mike Inez. (Inez had plenty of free time after his group broke up earlier this year.) The album will be released sometime in the first quarter of 1995, according to Bridenthal. (News Pilot, Oct. 7, 1994)
Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....
Ha!....it never crossed my mind to look for the video. I'm shocked that it's even on there.
Yeah you're right.....it makes a little more sense if he's referring to 96.
From CD Whispers in 96...
"One particular evening, after they were done for the day, I went [...] to dinner at Chasen's [with Keith Richards.] [...] I'd been at the studio rehearsing all day, so when the conversation swung around to my band, I let it all out. Keith took it all in, and then looked me deep in the eye. 'Listen,' he said. 'There's one thing you never do - you never leave.' [...] Keith inspired me; I felt like I had to try harder. The next day I tried to refocus my outlook and I showed up at The Complex ready to make it work at all costs. [...] Axl never showed up to rehearse and the attorneys' negotiation of our 'employment contracts' had taken a really insulting turn." (Slash, autobiography)
---
"By September 1996, Slash was so miserable that he swore, 'I'm going to confront it. Either Paul goes, or...' (Q Magazine, 05/01)
On 09/16/96, Slash shared the stage with Neurotic Outsiders in Phoenix, Arizona. Three days prior, Duff and Matt had returned to the road after a few days of in-between jamming with GNR. Slash's appearance might've marked the end of the Axl/Slash/Paul Huge/Duff/Matt/Dizzy -lineup.
"Right now, Axl and I are deliberating over the future of our relationship. [...] I have only been back in the band for three weeks and my relationship with Axl right now is sort of at a stand still." (Slash chat, 10/16/96)
Yeah...not a lot getting done as the band circles the drain.
They both deserve blame. Axl should not have been pushing the employee angle with lawyers at the time....and Slash needed to take Paul Huge to the side and have a private discussion....fight it out if you have to.
I do take his side on that issue....Gilby didn't need to be fired. Yeah he ran his mouth to the media when he shouldn't have....but a good talking to couldve sorted that out.
Once he was gone though...work on plan b.
It really does boil down to the Snakepit material. Slash took them, did his own thing quickly, and it was successful.
Now he's demanding Huge exit stage left. Axl wasn't going to cave in. A miscalculation certainly.... especially with Duff and Matt siding with Slash on the issue... even after Slash was gone.
The CD sessions do show that Huge did bring potential to the band. Having said that, it wasn't worth breaking up the band.
Hard to believe such a quality poster only has 9 posts. Did you used to post on the old forums years ago? Your name seems vaguely familiar.
Either way...you should post more often.... especially if things start heating up in the GNR world.
Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....
Ha!....it never crossed my mind to look for the video. I'm shocked that it's even on there.
Yeah you're right.....it makes a little more sense if he's referring to 96.
From CD Whispers in 96...
"One particular evening, after they were done for the day, I went [...] to dinner at Chasen's [with Keith Richards.] [...] I'd been at the studio rehearsing all day, so when the conversation swung around to my band, I let it all out. Keith took it all in, and then looked me deep in the eye. 'Listen,' he said. 'There's one thing you never do - you never leave.' [...] Keith inspired me; I felt like I had to try harder. The next day I tried to refocus my outlook and I showed up at The Complex ready to make it work at all costs. [...] Axl never showed up to rehearse and the attorneys' negotiation of our 'employment contracts' had taken a really insulting turn." (Slash, autobiography)
---
"By September 1996, Slash was so miserable that he swore, 'I'm going to confront it. Either Paul goes, or...' (Q Magazine, 05/01)
On 09/16/96, Slash shared the stage with Neurotic Outsiders in Phoenix, Arizona. Three days prior, Duff and Matt had returned to the road after a few days of in-between jamming with GNR. Slash's appearance might've marked the end of the Axl/Slash/Paul Huge/Duff/Matt/Dizzy -lineup.
"Right now, Axl and I are deliberating over the future of our relationship. [...] I have only been back in the band for three weeks and my relationship with Axl right now is sort of at a stand still." (Slash chat, 10/16/96)
Yeah...not a lot getting done as the band circles the drain.
They both deserve blame. Axl should not have been pushing the employee angle with lawyers at the time....and Slash needed to take Paul Huge to the side and have a private discussion....fight it out if you have to.
I do take his side on that issue....Gilby didn't need to be fired. Yeah he ran his mouth to the media when he shouldn't have....but a good talking to couldve sorted that out.
Once he was gone though...work on plan b.
It really does boil down to the Snakepit material. Slash took them, did his own thing quickly, and it was successful.
Now he's demanding Huge exit stage left. Axl wasn't going to cave in. A miscalculation certainly.... especially with Duff and Matt siding with Slash on the issue... even after Slash was gone.
The CD sessions do show that Huge did bring potential to the band. Having said that, it wasn't worth breaking up the band.
Hard to believe such a quality poster only has 9 posts. Did you used to post on the old forums years ago? Your name seems vaguely familiar.
Either way...you should post more often.... especially if things start heating up in the GNR world.
Thanks. I've been reading this forum for a while, but didn't post. I've really appreciated the quality of the discussions - and, of course, Chinese Whispers has been an invaluable source for the CD saga, which I didn't follow in real time. I'm one of those fans who "moved on" after the mid-90s (not that I didn't like the band anymore, but just real life, other music, etc., so I wasn't constantly looking for news and updates). Then the reunion happened and my interest was somehow reawakened. I starting reading stuff and posting at mygnrforum (I guess because it was the first forum I came across - and the most active at the time). I've also been at a-4-d.com; we've been creating a database of GN'R articles/interviews there (we've collected about 3,500 so far, from 1985 to today), which is the basis of an "in their own words" band history in progress. Long story short, all of a sudden I found myself nerding out on GN'R.
*
What seems to have been the main issue with Gilby is that Axl didn't think he was good enough as a writer. However, Gilby's dismissal wasn't as instantaneous as Slash presented it in his book later. According to Slash interviews of the time (as well as some other sources), it looks like there were some back and forth discussions between Axl and Slash regarding Gilby's future in the band: Axl suggested to bring in someone else (presumably Huge) to write with and also keep Gilby on the side as a touring member. But, of course, the conflict over the initial rejection of the Snakepit material (that Gilby had been part of) followed by Gilby's lashing out in the press (which he tried to retract from soon afterwards) didn't help.
This Slash interview from 1995, in particular, which surfaced on Alice Cooper's podcast about a year ago, is very enlightening about what was going on (from Slash's side, at least):
Slash: [...] There’s always been friction between Axl and I in some cases. It’s like a love/hate thing. We’re very close but we’re very distant just because we’re completely different people, and that’s what probably makes us more or less dynamic as, you know, performers together and musicians together. But we don’t always see eye to eye and it usually takes some time till we fall into a sort of niche where we’d agree, you know? So Axl and I, there was some conflict of interest over my doing this record and making a priority of that instead of concentrating on my relationship with Axl, and Guns N’ Roses in general, and doing a Guns record. He wanted that first before I went on to do this. But before I went on to do this, he had encouraged me to do a solo record because he wasn’t ready to get to work yet. Then, once he did want to get to work, he was like, “I want this song, and this song, and this song,” the songs he'd turned down. I said, “Dude, the album is finished already, it’s done.” So that pissed him off and we had – you know, Gilby got fired, Axl got to fire Gilby and that was one of the main key things that separated me and Axl by miles.
Then finally, as time went on, I started trying to work with Ax up at the Snakepit studio with this guy, Paul Huge, who I couldn’t stand but tried to make things work. And finally, because of the fact that nobody besides Axl liked this guy, it built friction between Duff and Matt and I, which has never existed before. So once I saw that happening, I said rehearsals are over. Axl was out of town for a week or something, and he came back and he goes, “What time is rehearsal?” I said, “There is no rehearsal,” so that started another fight. Plus I took that guy, Paul, off the payroll, so there was a big conflict of interest there.
And a lot of time went by, we started working the Snakepit album and I wasn’t coming down to Guns N’ Roses rehearsals, so Axl was getting pissed off about that. So I took some time out from Snakepit and rehearsed with Guns, and Zakk Wylde was playing with us at the time. And that was fun, because I know Zakk really well and I like him a lot, he’s a great player, but we don’t sound like Guns N’ Roses with him in the band. So I was sort of like, “Well, whatever, here’s my schedule and I’ll be back in August” and I’ve been gone ever since. But Axl and I did have a huge fallout where a lot of stuff came out in the open, and we came to an agreement, so it was really healthy – not really an argument, but a discussion about where we were at.
[...]
You know, I would love for none of this to have happened. It’s personally, on a pride level, very damaging and I don’t expect him, even if he was asked to come back, to come back. But he was never officially fired. Axl just didn’t want to write with him. Gilby never even got a chance to write, except for with me.
And Axl’s always wanted to get two high profile lead guitar players together, which is a great concept, except for it turns the band into an over the top, obnoxious guitar band. You know, it’s just too much, because I’m gonna play in the way that I’m gonna play and I would expect that whoever comes in wouldn’t hold back on how he plays. And so having a good rhythm guitar player letting me do my thing is probably the best way that Guns work. Trading guitar solos is cool between guitar players, but when it’s like two break neck guitar players clashing it out, it doesn’t leave room for the music or the songs, and I’m not into that, I think is boring. Anyway, for a guitar playing thing it’s great, but I mean as a whole guitar records bore the hell out of me, when it’s just nothing but diddly diddly diddly all the way through (laughs).
Anyway, so as far as Gilby is concerned, I wouldn’t expect him to come back even, like I said, if he was asked, only because his feelings were hurt. Axl didn’t want to write with him and I had to go and tell Gilby myself that this was going on, so he didn’t hear it, you know, in the field or something or turned into some sort of weird rumor. So I went and told him and then – well, I think the thing that really etched in stone Gilby’s dismissal from Guns was the fact that he had words with Duff and he had words with Axl, and that sort of cemented the fact that he wasn’t in the band. But Axl still thinks, like he does with everybody, like, “Well, maybe we’ll have three guitar players, or maybe we’ll do this or maybe we’ll do that,” or “Gilby can come out live,” but whatever. And I come from a different point of view altogether: that you get the guy that fits naturally, you write together, he plays on the record and he does the tour. It’s not like we get a bunch of hired Guns just because Axl thinks that me and him are the only things that are really important in Guns N’ Roses, you know. I don’t think - it has always been a band to me, you know, so we’ll see what happens.
There's also this from Doug Goldstein:
Gilby toured with us to complete the "Illusions" tour. Shortly thereafter Axl and Gilby spoke about what Axl wanted to try next. After Izzy's departure Axl felt Guns could use a little help in the writing department. Axl thought the addition of another guitar player (#3) would help the situation. Unhappy with this, Gilby stated "I don't want to be in Molly Hatchet" and quit. (Letter to Newsweek in response to review, Jan. 6, 2000)
- FlashFlood
- Rep: 55
Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....
James wrote:Ha!....it never crossed my mind to look for the video. I'm shocked that it's even on there.
Yeah you're right.....it makes a little more sense if he's referring to 96.
From CD Whispers in 96...
"One particular evening, after they were done for the day, I went [...] to dinner at Chasen's [with Keith Richards.] [...] I'd been at the studio rehearsing all day, so when the conversation swung around to my band, I let it all out. Keith took it all in, and then looked me deep in the eye. 'Listen,' he said. 'There's one thing you never do - you never leave.' [...] Keith inspired me; I felt like I had to try harder. The next day I tried to refocus my outlook and I showed up at The Complex ready to make it work at all costs. [...] Axl never showed up to rehearse and the attorneys' negotiation of our 'employment contracts' had taken a really insulting turn." (Slash, autobiography)
---
"By September 1996, Slash was so miserable that he swore, 'I'm going to confront it. Either Paul goes, or...' (Q Magazine, 05/01)
On 09/16/96, Slash shared the stage with Neurotic Outsiders in Phoenix, Arizona. Three days prior, Duff and Matt had returned to the road after a few days of in-between jamming with GNR. Slash's appearance might've marked the end of the Axl/Slash/Paul Huge/Duff/Matt/Dizzy -lineup.
"Right now, Axl and I are deliberating over the future of our relationship. [...] I have only been back in the band for three weeks and my relationship with Axl right now is sort of at a stand still." (Slash chat, 10/16/96)
Yeah...not a lot getting done as the band circles the drain.
They both deserve blame. Axl should not have been pushing the employee angle with lawyers at the time....and Slash needed to take Paul Huge to the side and have a private discussion....fight it out if you have to.
I do take his side on that issue....Gilby didn't need to be fired. Yeah he ran his mouth to the media when he shouldn't have....but a good talking to couldve sorted that out.
Once he was gone though...work on plan b.
It really does boil down to the Snakepit material. Slash took them, did his own thing quickly, and it was successful.
Now he's demanding Huge exit stage left. Axl wasn't going to cave in. A miscalculation certainly.... especially with Duff and Matt siding with Slash on the issue... even after Slash was gone.
The CD sessions do show that Huge did bring potential to the band. Having said that, it wasn't worth breaking up the band.
Hard to believe such a quality poster only has 9 posts. Did you used to post on the old forums years ago? Your name seems vaguely familiar.
Either way...you should post more often.... especially if things start heating up in the GNR world.
Thanks. I've been reading this forum for a while, but didn't post. I've really appreciated the quality of the discussions - and, of course, Chinese Whispers has been an invaluable source for the CD saga, which I didn't follow in real time. I'm one of those fans who "moved on" after the mid-90s (not that I didn't like the band anymore, but just real life, other music, etc., so I wasn't constantly looking for news and updates). Then the reunion happened and my interest was somehow reawakened. I starting reading stuff and posting at mygnrforum (I guess because it was the first forum I came across - and the most active at the time). I've also been at a-4-d.com; we've been creating a database of GN'R articles/interviews there (we've collected about 3,500 so far, from 1985 to today), which is the basis of an "in their own words" band history in progress. Long story short, all of a sudden I found myself nerding out on GN'R.
*
What seems to have been the main issue with Gilby is that Axl didn't think he was good enough as a writer. However, Gilby's dismissal wasn't as instantaneous as Slash presented it in his book later. According to Slash interviews of the time (as well as some other sources), it looks like there were some back and forth discussions between Axl and Slash regarding Gilby's future in the band: Axl suggested to bring in someone else (presumably Huge) to write with and also keep Gilby on the side as a touring member. But, of course, the conflict over the initial rejection of the Snakepit material (that Gilby had been part of) followed by Gilby's lashing out in the press (which he tried to retract from soon afterwards) didn't help.
This Slash interview from 1995, in particular, which surfaced on Alice Cooper's podcast about a year ago, is very enlightening about what was going on (from Slash's side, at least):
Slash: [...] There’s always been friction between Axl and I in some cases. It’s like a love/hate thing. We’re very close but we’re very distant just because we’re completely different people, and that’s what probably makes us more or less dynamic as, you know, performers together and musicians together. But we don’t always see eye to eye and it usually takes some time till we fall into a sort of niche where we’d agree, you know? So Axl and I, there was some conflict of interest over my doing this record and making a priority of that instead of concentrating on my relationship with Axl, and Guns N’ Roses in general, and doing a Guns record. He wanted that first before I went on to do this. But before I went on to do this, he had encouraged me to do a solo record because he wasn’t ready to get to work yet. Then, once he did want to get to work, he was like, “I want this song, and this song, and this song,” the songs he'd turned down. I said, “Dude, the album is finished already, it’s done.” So that pissed him off and we had – you know, Gilby got fired, Axl got to fire Gilby and that was one of the main key things that separated me and Axl by miles.
Then finally, as time went on, I started trying to work with Ax up at the Snakepit studio with this guy, Paul Huge, who I couldn’t stand but tried to make things work. And finally, because of the fact that nobody besides Axl liked this guy, it built friction between Duff and Matt and I, which has never existed before. So once I saw that happening, I said rehearsals are over. Axl was out of town for a week or something, and he came back and he goes, “What time is rehearsal?” I said, “There is no rehearsal,” so that started another fight. Plus I took that guy, Paul, off the payroll, so there was a big conflict of interest there.
And a lot of time went by, we started working the Snakepit album and I wasn’t coming down to Guns N’ Roses rehearsals, so Axl was getting pissed off about that. So I took some time out from Snakepit and rehearsed with Guns, and Zakk Wylde was playing with us at the time. And that was fun, because I know Zakk really well and I like him a lot, he’s a great player, but we don’t sound like Guns N’ Roses with him in the band. So I was sort of like, “Well, whatever, here’s my schedule and I’ll be back in August” and I’ve been gone ever since. But Axl and I did have a huge fallout where a lot of stuff came out in the open, and we came to an agreement, so it was really healthy – not really an argument, but a discussion about where we were at.
[...]
You know, I would love for none of this to have happened. It’s personally, on a pride level, very damaging and I don’t expect him, even if he was asked to come back, to come back. But he was never officially fired. Axl just didn’t want to write with him. Gilby never even got a chance to write, except for with me.
And Axl’s always wanted to get two high profile lead guitar players together, which is a great concept, except for it turns the band into an over the top, obnoxious guitar band. You know, it’s just too much, because I’m gonna play in the way that I’m gonna play and I would expect that whoever comes in wouldn’t hold back on how he plays. And so having a good rhythm guitar player letting me do my thing is probably the best way that Guns work. Trading guitar solos is cool between guitar players, but when it’s like two break neck guitar players clashing it out, it doesn’t leave room for the music or the songs, and I’m not into that, I think is boring. Anyway, for a guitar playing thing it’s great, but I mean as a whole guitar records bore the hell out of me, when it’s just nothing but diddly diddly diddly all the way through (laughs).
Anyway, so as far as Gilby is concerned, I wouldn’t expect him to come back even, like I said, if he was asked, only because his feelings were hurt. Axl didn’t want to write with him and I had to go and tell Gilby myself that this was going on, so he didn’t hear it, you know, in the field or something or turned into some sort of weird rumor. So I went and told him and then – well, I think the thing that really etched in stone Gilby’s dismissal from Guns was the fact that he had words with Duff and he had words with Axl, and that sort of cemented the fact that he wasn’t in the band. But Axl still thinks, like he does with everybody, like, “Well, maybe we’ll have three guitar players, or maybe we’ll do this or maybe we’ll do that,” or “Gilby can come out live,” but whatever. And I come from a different point of view altogether: that you get the guy that fits naturally, you write together, he plays on the record and he does the tour. It’s not like we get a bunch of hired Guns just because Axl thinks that me and him are the only things that are really important in Guns N’ Roses, you know. I don’t think - it has always been a band to me, you know, so we’ll see what happens.
There's also this from Doug Goldstein:
Doug Goldstein wrote:Gilby toured with us to complete the "Illusions" tour. Shortly thereafter Axl and Gilby spoke about what Axl wanted to try next. After Izzy's departure Axl felt Guns could use a little help in the writing department. Axl thought the addition of another guitar player (#3) would help the situation. Unhappy with this, Gilby stated "I don't want to be in Molly Hatchet" and quit. (Letter to Newsweek in response to review, Jan. 6, 2000)
That was an awesome article. Thanks.
Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....
That is a great interview. I much prefer old interviews like that closer to when this stuff happened instead of hindsight tainting the perspective.
Man...it looks like things were going to get crazy whether Slash stays or goes.
You can easily picture an alternate universe where GNR is Axl and Slash and a rotating cast.
Yeah that universe might have led to more releases....but it also might lead to Slash quitting in 98 or 99 and the same shit happening but in a different order.
Was Axl walking into the studio wearing earplugs when Gilby was recording Pawnshop Guitars? A couple songs just beg to be GNR songs....Cure Me or Kill Me and Tijuana Jail...and you could make a case for Skin N Bones and Let's Get Lost.
How can those have no value in the GNR world? Axl supposedly wants to do an album after TSI and everyone around him is creating material...and guesting on one another's solo albums....all within a year and a half.
You can take the best songs from Believe in Me, Pawnshop Guitars, and Snakepit, and toss in This I Love....
There's your album.
Instead....all they do is a Rolling Stones cover.
A waste of talent...and it was only the beginning.
Re: Axl's optimism in 2002....
Strange....I didn't see that post from Cerulean Wind....
"The Lies They Tell" [Instrumental] [Frankesteined track
Where are you getting this stuff?
Am I forgetting something?
Speaking of forgetting....
One of the Buckethead songs wound up getting released on one of his thousand solo albums so all these lists everyone has need to be updated.
