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Re: Bumblefoot not happy? Speculating....
i love PJ, but they're different to what Nirvana were about or coming from.
they are the last great American rock band & one of the greatest bands ever.
but Kurt & Nirvana belong to a different class. they belong in the Anthology of American Folk Music. PJ were 'just' a rock band. Kurt was more than that narrow definition. he was a writer & a spirit tuned into something deeper, something shared w/the bluesmen & whatever went before them he belongs in that lineage. his songs are of that style & quality.
it seems to me he's underrated on here. people don't grasp just how special he was.
i actually think if he hadn't fucked off, he'd have continued to create greatness. his potential was unlimited. he was a fucking waster tho.
i'm not denying there has been rampant commercialization of his image since his death.
but that doesn't diminish his life's work. which is as valuable & comparable to any of the great american artists, in any field, from the 20th century.
Just to name one, Machine Gun is better than anything Cobain ever wrote. A perfect song for the Vietnam era accompanied by a complete masterpiece of an instrumental.... Maybe the greatest guitar virtuoso display of all time. I consider the instrumental part of the songwriting process....especially when the guy sings and writes the lyrics and music like Jimi and Kurt. Hendrix has a ton of original songs that are drop dead classics...just skim through his 3 classic studio albums.
np: If 6 Was 9......I'm gonna wave my freak flag high!
er... ok. i can't see that myself, tho i do love Machine Gun. & If 6 was 9 to a lesser extent.
i'm really not dissing on Jimi. i just find it hard to classify him as a songwriter per se, given that he elevated everything else. it's like his talents in other areas overshadow his songwriting.
but no, you're right he is obv one of the greatest ever.
but to go back to my original point - he was a contemporary of dylan rather than coming after him, which is what i was saying in relation to kurt. there's plenty of great american songwriters around the time of dylan - reed, wilson, mayfield, jimi. arthur lee! my point was what came after & bar townes & maybe prine & a few others like Prince, Kurt is the greatest. & he was tapped into that spiritual trip, whether he was conscious of it or not, of writing some of the great [folk] songs of his or any era.
Re: Bumblefoot not happy? Speculating....
@johndivney True that PJ and Nirvana are two very different beasts but doesn't change that PJ was better than Nirvana and that Cobain is overrated big time. And he proved it. They never were able to make another album as good as Nevermind. And don't throw the Unplugged album argument. That was a live album and yes while it did capture one amazing night it cannot be compared to an album of new material. And the fact that there was a rampant commercialization of his image since his death has NOTHING to do with the fact that he was overrated. His guitar playing was mediocre and I will tell you a true story. The very first time I heard and saw the video for Smells like teen spirit I thought it was a joke. I thoought that this was something similar to Weird Al Yankovic. A band that was mocking hard rock music. And I'll always remember being in shock when the VJ said it was the next big thing. And again go back and listen to Nevermind. It has not aged well at all. To compare Cobain to the likes of Dylan (who by the way I am not a fan of), Hank Williams and Johnny Cash is simply morally wrong. And again I need to stress that I am more a fan of Cobain than I am of Dylan.
Re: Bumblefoot not happy? Speculating....
forgot about Lou Reed, Prince, and Brian Wilson...all above Cobain in my opinion. Cobain is certainly in the discussion and would probably fall somewhere in the top 15....
Exactly...I was thinking of a list and thought of those 3 plus Neil Diamond and Billy Joel, and more recently PJ, Rob Thomas, Rivers Cuomo, and even Billie Joe Armstrong were better at writing songs than Cobain, and that's without putting any effort into it. That doesn't mean Cobain sucks, but I just don't see him as a top 2 guy and probably not even as a top 20 guy if I really sat down to write a list.
Re: Bumblefoot not happy? Speculating....
holy fuck this thread just gets funnier. zomg billy joel?! rob thomas? 
rivers cuomo? have you even listened to weezer post-pinkerton?!
forgot about Lou Reed, Prince, and Brian Wilson...all above Cobain in my opinion. Cobain is certainly in the discussion and would probably fall somewhere in the top 15....
well forget about reed/wilson in this cause, again, like i said i was talking about what came AFTER dylan.
re: gnfnraxl
uh.. In Utero is their best album.
this page has really brought the lulz. i can't stop smiling.
in a way i do feel sorry for some of you. you're missing out on so much. but at the same, youse are so funny it makes up for it. brilliant.
Re: Bumblefoot not happy? Speculating....
holy fuck this thread just gets funnier. zomg billy joel?! rob thomas?
rivers cuomo? have you even listened to weezer post-pinkerton?!Sky Dog wrote:forgot about Lou Reed, Prince, and Brian Wilson...all above Cobain in my opinion. Cobain is certainly in the discussion and would probably fall somewhere in the top 15....
well forget about reed/wilson in this cause, again, like i said i was talking about what came AFTER dylan.
re: gnfnraxl
uh.. In Utero is their best album.this page has really brought the lulz. i can't stop smiling.
in a way i do feel sorry for some of you. you're missing out on so much. but at the same, youse are so funny it makes up for it. brilliant.
I'm missing out on so much? Missing out on what? I have Nirvana's records. Listened to them. What am I missing? Is it because I think Nevermind is better than In Utero? It's all a matter of tastes. Just like some people prefer the Illusions albums. Personally I prefer Appetite. And yes Reed, Wilson and Prince are all better than Cobain. Hell Michael Jackson was better than Cobain. And I agree with buzzsaw on his post. without putting much thought I think I could come up with plenty of songwriters that are better than Cobain. Does it mean he sucks? Hell no! Just means that he ain't in the top ten and was overrated. But that is MY OPINION. I respect yours and enjoy debating. But saying that I'm missing out on something is weak as an argument in this case because I did NOT miss out on Nirvana. I just did not enjoy their music as much as some did and I do not let Cobain's death influence my decision on how I enjoy his work.
Re: Bumblefoot not happy? Speculating....
Others who I think are better than Cobain. Mayhard James Keenan (Although I wish he'd put out more music), Axl Rose (lyrically), James Hetfield, Roy Orbison (underrated in my opinion), Jack White, Chris Cornell. ANd again I did not think about it much. And while we're discussing overrated people I'll throw another name. Billy Corgan. Now THAT is overrated and he sucks unlike Cobain.
Re: Bumblefoot not happy? Speculating....
I forgot to list REM/Michael Stipe...miles better than Cobain. I actually think of Cobain as a poor man's Michael Stipe...their writing styles were pretty similar (simple music, catchy hooks, nonsensical lyrics), but obviously REM has a much larger body of work.
Cobain became overrated the second he died. That's what happens. Death makes you 100 times better than you actually were (see Amy Winehouse). Again, doesn't mean he sucks and he clearly belongs in the top 50 somewhere even if you don't like his music. Probably in the upper half of the top 50. That's pretty damn good.
You mention Weezer after Pinkerton, but I wasn't a big fan of the last Nirvana album either. Who's to say he was not washed up creatively? And you think Cobain was a better songwriter than Billy Joel? What is your basis for that? Not which do you like better...that's a different question. What makes Cobain a better songwriter than Billy Joel? The guy adapted and changed styles from piano man to rock singer to pop singer over a 20+ year career and stayed at the top. Just because you may not like his music doesn't take away from his abilities as a songwriter.
Re: Bumblefoot not happy? Speculating....
I forgot to list REM/Michael Stipe...miles better than Cobain. I actually think of Cobain as a poor man's Michael Stipe...their writing styles were pretty similar (simple music, catchy hooks, nonsensical lyrics), but obviously REM has a much larger body of work.
Cobain became overrated the second he died. That's what happens. Death makes you 100 times better than you actually were (see Amy Winehouse). Again, doesn't mean he sucks and he clearly belongs in the top 50 somewhere even if you don't like his music. Probably in the upper half of the top 50. That's pretty damn good.
You mention Weezer after Pinkerton, but I wasn't a big fan of the last Nirvana album either. Who's to say he was not washed up creatively? And you think Cobain was a better songwriter than Billy Joel? What is your basis for that? Not which do you like better...that's a different question. What makes Cobain a better songwriter than Billy Joel? The guy adapted and changed styles from piano man to rock singer to pop singer over a 20+ year career and stayed at the top. Just because you may not like his music doesn't take away from his abilities as a songwriter.
I forgot Stipe as well. Thanks Buzzsaw. Weezer are better than Nirvana as well I think. To say that Cobain is superior to Joel is laughable. And I agree. Death makes one better. A shame really. I remember when Whinehouse died and she instantly became a legend and well let's just say she was not that good. Ad even closer. Whitney Houston. After her death, she became such a wonderful person. Now the woman could sing. But to say she was a fantastic human being and mother could be stretching it. After all she did become a drug addict well after her mid twenties. So she certainly can't blame this one on youth. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that drug addicts are not good people. But is she was such a wonderful woman then she'd have quit drugs a long time ago for her kids sake.
