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Re: Wiki Leaks
Atari is a Northern Irishman from Northern Ireland, you there who are informing him of the suffering of the Irish people under this military dictatorship, where are you?
Just like most americans know their government is run by criminals? Place of residence doesn't mean shit.
Re: Wiki Leaks
I've lived in Northern Ireland most of my life, I study Irish and European history in Belfast Metropolitan college. Most of the people on my course are Catholics. I didn't live through the 70s, but I can tell you in my life time, over the past 23 years milltary dictatorship my ass.
Yeah, they've toned it down after they broke the resistance. But the people in the 70s knew, they didn't martyr themselves just because they didn't like the english. Discrimination, army troops in the streets, illegal arrests, torture.
Then british intelligence went in and amped the whole thing up 300 degrees, making the IRA lose support with the people. The top leaders were AGENTS.
Re: Wiki Leaks
while it is true the provo's (provisional IRA, not the 'real' or 'official IRA' who were a much smaller band of terrorists) were infiltrated by british agents it's incorrect to say that was the reason the IRA began to lose support with the people.
the horrendous acts of violence, particularly upon civilians, in the publics mind far outweighed any kinda of nationalist 'cause'. yea there were spike in public support for the Provo's - internment & the hunger strikes but the majority always believed in peace & democracy.
firstly, the majority of nationalists (who are mainly comprised of Catholics) were never supportive of the IRA.
that however is not to dismiss the support they had. they simply wouldn't have been able to function & survive without people hiding them or funding them.
the main factors in the IRA's eventual cessation & giving up of their weapons were: a war-weariness of the people & the recognition the violence had reached a stalemate - that the British were not going to leave the 6 counties through war. there were other factors, but the British had been secretly talking with the Provo's from the 70's (i think, possibly the 80's - my memory is fuzzy on this)
however, most important in undermining the nationalist cause for re-unification is of course financial. it makes more sense for nationalists (& catholics) to be part of the union of GB than it does to rejoin the 26 in a free state.
during the 90's the british government was pumping 6/7 BILLION per year into NI - which was substantially more than any other region of the UK. & i'm p sure the budget compared to other UK regions is still wildly out of proportion.
things are a LOT different now than even ten years ago., nevermind in the 20's - 80's..
in this era of fairness (& even the use of affirmative action - such as the aim of having a disproportionate number of catholics in the police force...) the idea of freedom & a cause seem a lot less important. Ireland will only be reunited when it makes financial sense for all involved.
& i wouldn't say it was ever a military dictatorship. yea there was rampant discrimination & human rights abuses, gerrymandering & exclusion of catholics/nationalists from government. but those in power weren't military people, they were simply unionists & loyalists who hated catholics & nationalists.
Re: Wiki Leaks
Olorin wrote:Atari is a Northern Irishman from Northern Ireland, you there who are informing him of the suffering of the Irish people under this military dictatorship, where are you?
Just like most americans know their government is run by criminals? Place of residence doesn't mean shit.
Someone is stonned and has been watching too much 24 again.
AtariLegend wrote:I've lived in Northern Ireland most of my life, I study Irish and European history in Belfast Metropolitan college. Most of the people on my course are Catholics. I didn't live through the 70s, but I can tell you in my life time, over the past 23 years milltary dictatorship my ass.
Yeah, they've toned it down after they broke the resistance. But the people in the 70s knew, they didn't martyr themselves just because they didn't like the english. Discrimination, army troops in the streets, illegal arrests, torture.
Then british intelligence went in and amped the whole thing up 300 degrees, making the IRA lose support with the people. The top leaders were AGENTS.
You're not much older than me as I recall, you certainly didn't live througout it and I'll go out on a limb and assume you've never been to Belfast in your life.
I think the people in this country both sides are more viable sources of information than German/Norweigan news reports.
I agree with johny.
Re: Wiki Leaks
while it is true the provo's (provisional IRA, not the 'real' or 'official IRA' who were a much smaller band of terrorists) were infiltrated by british agents it's incorrect to say that was the reason the IRA began to lose support with the people.
the horrendous acts of violence, particularly upon civilians, in the publics mind far outweighed any kinda of nationalist 'cause'. yea there were spike in public support for the Provo's - internment & the hunger strikes but the majority always believed in peace & democracy.firstly, the majority of nationalists (who are mainly comprised of Catholics) were never supportive of the IRA.
that however is not to dismiss the support they had. they simply wouldn't have been able to function & survive without people hiding them or funding them.the main factors in the IRA's eventual cessation & giving up of their weapons were: a war-weariness of the people & the recognition the violence had reached a stalemate - that the British were not going to leave the 6 counties through war. there were other factors, but the British had been secretly talking with the Provo's from the 70's (i think, possibly the 80's - my memory is fuzzy on this)
however, most important in undermining the nationalist cause for re-unification is of course financial. it makes more sense for nationalists (& catholics) to be part of the union of GB than it does to rejoin the 26 in a free state.
during the 90's the british government was pumping 6/7 BILLION per year into NI - which was substantially more than any other region of the UK. & i'm p sure the budget compared to other UK regions is still wildly out of proportion.things are a LOT different now than even ten years ago., nevermind in the 20's - 80's..
in this era of fairness (& even the use of affirmative action - such as the aim of having a disproportionate number of catholics in the police force...) the idea of freedom & a cause seem a lot less important. Ireland will only be reunited when it makes financial sense for all involved.& i wouldn't say it was ever a military dictatorship. yea there was rampant discrimination & human rights abuses, gerrymandering & exclusion of catholics/nationalists from government. but those in power weren't military people, they were simply unionists & loyalists who hated catholics & nationalists.
While we don't know all the details and never will, I think you misunderstand the role of BI. They are not there just to bust people. They usually make sure the group they are in in fact does carry out their actions and more than once. Meaning they were themselves responsible for the escalation in violence. In what degree is hard to say, but if I had to put money on it I'd go for the over. They are professionals after all. That is what they do. Subversion, destruction, infiltration.
I'm not sure the government even considered it a real conflict. I suspect, as have been done so many times in the past, they fostered it so they could bring in anti freedom legislation and distract the population from other issues. We know the CIA carried out such operations in Europe (Gladio and Stay Behind), with support from my Government. Without knowing for sure I'd say Britain's no less cynical. If they can chemically experiment on the public for 40 years from the sky, why not. The peace broker was an agent, was he not?
Now that all that's in place, of course the money's flowing in. Now they gotta build their "success". Looks like Colony 101 to me.
About the military dictatorship, if things were worse in the 70s and this is now, I gotta wonder...
The military has been asked to prepare to man Britain's borders during the mass walkout by public sector workers, according to Sky sources.
Up to 18,000 immigration officials are expected to be among those joining the industrial action on November 30 over public sector pensions.
The military have been told to ready themselves to step in if necessary and civil servants have also been approached to help out.
Take your pension, send in the army if you complain?
I'm sorry, but it's high time you get to know the absolute criminals in your government. I can't do much more, I got my own problems at home with a fresh inside job.
Re: Wiki Leaks
Where were the tanks and concentration camps in Belfast? Small Paramilitary groups here, are not the same as Freikorps or any way motivated by the same cause.
What Anti-Freedom Legislation are you talking about and what does a pensions strike today have to do with the IRA blowing up pubs and busses in the 70s have to do with it? I know people who supported the IRA and wanted the Queen shot she went to Dublin, had fuck all to do with pensions or legislation.
Come on, I think it's time for some examples other than 1940's Italy such as what happened in this country, your avoiding the actual subject.
You're going down the Amercians planned 9/11 style thinking, yet not providing any facts or sources whatsoever.
Re: Wiki Leaks
How about you check it out for yourself? It's not like I have a secret document. All of this is public if you want to see it. But alright, just at the top of my head.
There's not going to be a real investigation. The focus is to keep the people calm. They don't need to know everything - Chief of the CIA 2001
Lemme see, what does the army intimidating lawful strikes have to do with a dictatorship? You are aware, are you not, that your Queen is a sovereign autocrat? That it's not just ceremonial? You do know that Britain is barely a sovereign nation under the EU, an unelected elitist supernational entity?
Dictatorships are not tanks in the streets and concentration camps. That's called war. A dictatorship is pretty much a normal (these days I guess that's pretty much limited to Switzerland and Iceland) country as long as you go along with whatever goverment tells you to do. It's not like guys like Murdoch with a majority ownership of your media can sway public opinion in any way. It's not like he hasn't already admitted to doing that.
I think it's you who have been watching too much 24. Guys like Bauer are the real terrorists. Government trained, tax payer paid. That's both documented and logical.
Re: Wiki Leaks
johndivney wrote:while it is true the provo's (provisional IRA, not the 'real' or 'official IRA' who were a much smaller band of terrorists) were infiltrated by british agents it's incorrect to say that was the reason the IRA began to lose support with the people.
the horrendous acts of violence, particularly upon civilians, in the publics mind far outweighed any kinda of nationalist 'cause'. yea there were spike in public support for the Provo's - internment & the hunger strikes but the majority always believed in peace & democracy.firstly, the majority of nationalists (who are mainly comprised of Catholics) were never supportive of the IRA.
that however is not to dismiss the support they had. they simply wouldn't have been able to function & survive without people hiding them or funding them.the main factors in the IRA's eventual cessation & giving up of their weapons were: a war-weariness of the people & the recognition the violence had reached a stalemate - that the British were not going to leave the 6 counties through war. there were other factors, but the British had been secretly talking with the Provo's from the 70's (i think, possibly the 80's - my memory is fuzzy on this)
however, most important in undermining the nationalist cause for re-unification is of course financial. it makes more sense for nationalists (& catholics) to be part of the union of GB than it does to rejoin the 26 in a free state.
during the 90's the british government was pumping 6/7 BILLION per year into NI - which was substantially more than any other region of the UK. & i'm p sure the budget compared to other UK regions is still wildly out of proportion.things are a LOT different now than even ten years ago., nevermind in the 20's - 80's..
in this era of fairness (& even the use of affirmative action - such as the aim of having a disproportionate number of catholics in the police force...) the idea of freedom & a cause seem a lot less important. Ireland will only be reunited when it makes financial sense for all involved.& i wouldn't say it was ever a military dictatorship. yea there was rampant discrimination & human rights abuses, gerrymandering & exclusion of catholics/nationalists from government. but those in power weren't military people, they were simply unionists & loyalists who hated catholics & nationalists.
While we don't know all the details and never will, I think you misunderstand the role of BI. They are not there just to bust people. They usually make sure the group they are in in fact does carry out their actions and more than once. Meaning they were themselves responsible for the escalation in violence. In what degree is hard to say, but if I had to put money on it I'd go for the over. They are professionals after all. That is what they do. Subversion, destruction, infiltration.
I'm not sure the government even considered it a real conflict. I suspect, as have been done so many times in the past, they fostered it so they could bring in anti freedom legislation and distract the population from other issues. We know the CIA carried out such operations in Europe (Gladio and Stay Behind), with support from my Government. Without knowing for sure I'd say Britain's no less cynical. If they can chemically experiment on the public for 40 years from the sky, why not. The peace broker was an agent, was he not?
Now that all that's in place, of course the money's flowing in. Now they gotta build their "success". Looks like Colony 101 to me.
About the military dictatorship, if things were worse in the 70s and this is now, I gotta wonder...
The military has been asked to prepare to man Britain's borders during the mass walkout by public sector workers, according to Sky sources.
Up to 18,000 immigration officials are expected to be among those joining the industrial action on November 30 over public sector pensions.
The military have been told to ready themselves to step in if necessary and civil servants have also been approached to help out.
Take your pension, send in the army if you complain?
I'm sorry, but it's high time you get to know the absolute criminals in your government. I can't do much more, I got my own problems at home with a fresh inside job.
i mean this in the nicest possible way, but you are bonko's.
u seem to have mis-interpreted the reaction to the immigration strikes. & seem to lack knowledge of where the violence started & why it escalated.
THERE WERE british agents in the high ranks of the IRA but to suggest those individuals were solely responsible is, frankly, a misunderstanding of the depth of the conflict.
there were british tanks & soldiers on the streets of NI as recently as the early 90's. by your own definition that's war.
i mean really mate, your conspiracy theories on the irish conflict fail to take into account the history fuelled emotion that lies at the core of the problem. i don't know how, if you've studied your irish - or british - history, you come to the paranoid conclusions you do.
i'm not saying there isn't some truth to your thinking, it's just you don't seem to appreciate the full extent of the conflict. the brits didn't use the IRA to try to pass draconian anti-freedom legislation. for a long time they didn't even care. they wanted to be rid of the NI problem & the irish conflict. they still do. it's a drain of their finances & a political headache.
& thanks, but we're all quite aware of the criminals in & around our government. it's part of the process mate.
& this isn't the US. we know more than we need to.
Re: Wiki Leaks
When two persons from opposite sides of the rabbit hole communicates, there are bound to be misunderstandings 
I'm no expert in Irish history, but as a history buff I am well aware of the long standing conflict. On the other hand I do have extensive knowledge of government subversion and rebellions, past and present. So when I see the same old government agents fingerprint another domestic rebellion I'm bound to make certain conclusions. Am I certain? No, but I am confident. To the point of my life.
And my focus on the more clandestine aspects of this issue does not mean I don't appreciate the full context, it just means that is what I'm interested in. You can offer a different opinion if you want. Your current reply is more indictive than it is constructive.
If everybody is aware of the criminals in your government, why don't you do something about it? Like in my country I don't think you really know how crooked they really are. It's not part of the process, it's criminal and deliberate.
Re: Wiki Leaks
When two persons from opposite sides of the rabbit hole communicates, there are bound to be misunderstandings
I'm no expert in Irish history, but as a history buff I am well aware of the long standing conflict. On the other hand I do have extensive knowledge of government subversion and rebellions, past and present. So when I see the same old government agents fingerprint another domestic rebellion I'm bound to make certain conclusions. Am I certain? No, but I am confident. To the point of my life.
And my focus on the more clandestine aspects of this issue does not mean I don't appreciate the full context, it just means that is what I'm interested in. You can offer a different opinion if you want. Your current reply is more indictive than it is constructive.
If everybody is aware of the criminals in your government, why don't you do something about it? Like in my country I don't think you really know how crooked they really are. It's not part of the process, it's criminal and deliberate.
sorry i couldn't be of more help(!) 
i think i think my idea of the criminals in my government is much different from your theories. people are doing something, but it's a slow process.
me? i'm not doing anything. i'm struck by apathy & laziness. it gets me too crazy & angry to be bothered with politics anymore tbh. i've had enough!
