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Re: Axl fires back at Irv with lawsuit
Not to rehash this argument (TIL sucks vs TIL rules), because I'm not interested in it, but what evidence do you have that it was intended to be big?
Composure of the song
Tempo of the song
Melody of the song
Orchestration of the song
TIL is a cousin (or a sibbling) to November Rain and Estranged. Even my grandma will hear it, if I play her the songs. They're from the same state in Axl's mind.
Since we have to agree on the fact that NR is a hit, then it's most natural to also assume that songs close to it in form is thought of as a potential hit.
Nothing is really intended as hits, they're more like "hoped to be hits" due to this, that etc. People have a fairly good idea of what works and what doesn't.
Because of TIL's attributes (see above), it's fairly safe to assume they hoped this could turn into something.
Re: Axl fires back at Irv with lawsuit
WM listening to the album and turning it down... I don't buy that. How can WM sit down and listen to a record and go "there's no hit".
There'™s one constant to the music business, a hit is a hit. And Chinese Democracy my friend, is not a hit.
Re: Axl fires back at Irv with lawsuit
There'™s one constant to the music business, a hit is a hit. And Chinese Democracy my friend, is not a hit.
I thought that was pretty settled by now. There's no real hit on Chinese Democracy. They're all good songs. Sometimes great songs, but there's no hit there.
Re: Axl fires back at Irv with lawsuit
There'™s one constant to the music business, a hit is a hit. And Chinese Democracy my friend, is not a hit.
I thought that was pretty settled by now. There's no real hit on Chinese Democracy. They're all good songs. Sometimes great songs, but there's no hit there.
Apparently you don't watch The Sopranos.....
- elevendayempire
- Rep: 96
Re: Axl fires back at Irv with lawsuit
Azoff fired Robin? Bwhahahahaa, yeah right. Azoff doesn't have that authority, and he and Robin know it. Only W. Axl Rose has that authority. Now him firing Robin and an effort to bring back Slash... why? Something tells me Axl would've considered calling Buckethead, before calling Slash, and Azoff most likely would already know this ahead of time. Or the VIABLE option of bringing back Izzy, putting him on rhythm, and sticking Fortus on lead. There are other options out there, before bringing back Slash, and Axl knows this. I don't think he's so dumb as to fall for all of this BS that Azoff was "supposedly" selling.
No, there's no realistic option - assuming you're a ruthless businessman who wants to break up Axl's band and force him to tour with other GN'R guitarists - other than bringing back Slash. A businessman like Azoff would look at what the "general public" consider to be GN'R, and in the minds of the general public, GN'R is Axl and Slash plus some other guys.
The general public usually latches onto two members of a band as the "essential" components, the iconic members of the band. Generally, they're the singer and the lead guitarist; everyone else in the band is disposable. Mick could not tour as The Rolling Stones without Keith, Page could not go on the road claiming to be Led Zeppelin without Plant. Queen had a hell of a hard time convincing people that Paul Rogers was a worthy replacement for Freddie Mercury, but no-one other than hardcore Queen fans gave a shit about the fact that John Deacon wasn't on bass. Drummers and bassists are pretty much disposable (unless they're Flea in the Chilis); note that Page, Plant and Jones were able to get away with calling themselves Led Zeppelin, even though they had the wrong Bonham in the drum stool. There would be a fucking uproar if Liam Gallagher toured as Oasis with the members of Beady Eye, even though they're the most recent Oasis line-up minus Noel Gallagher; by the same token, were Liam and Noel to get back together with a bunch of other musicians backing them, they could quite happily call themselves Oasis.
Axl could tour with his current band, replacing any one of the guitarists with Slash, and all the naysayers, the idiot DJs slating him and his band, the watercooler gossip, would just melt away. Because GN'R is, as far as the vast majority of the record-buying public are concerned, Axl and Slash. If Axl brought Izzy in as a regular member, the hardcore fans would go mental - but the general public couldn't care less (despite the fact that Izzy was, ironically, more crucial to the original line-up than Slash). If Axl brought Buckethead back, some fans - a subset of a subset of fans - would go mad for it, but Buckethead doesn't have the iconic resonance with the general public that Slash does.
So if you were a ruthless businessperson looking to tour a "reunited" GN'R, you would want Axl and Slash up there. Duff and Izzy would be bonuses, and no-one really gives a toss who's playing the drums (sorry Matt and Steven. And Josh. And Brain. And Frank.). The trouble for those ruthless businesspeople is, Axl doesn't want to play their game.
- jimmythegent
- Rep: 30
Re: Axl fires back at Irv with lawsuit
Azoff fired Robin? Bwhahahahaa, yeah right. Azoff doesn't have that authority, and he and Robin know it. Only W. Axl Rose has that authority. Now him firing Robin and an effort to bring back Slash... why? Something tells me Axl would've considered calling Buckethead, before calling Slash, and Azoff most likely would already know this ahead of time. Or the VIABLE option of bringing back Izzy, putting him on rhythm, and sticking Fortus on lead. There are other options out there, before bringing back Slash, and Axl knows this. I don't think he's so dumb as to fall for all of this BS that Azoff was "supposedly" selling.
No, there's no realistic option - assuming you're a ruthless businessman who wants to break up Axl's band and force him to tour with other GN'R guitarists - other than bringing back Slash. A businessman like Azoff would look at what the "general public" consider to be GN'R, and in the minds of the general public, GN'R is Axl and Slash plus some other guys.
The general public usually latches onto two members of a band as the "essential" components, the iconic members of the band. Generally, they're the singer and the lead guitarist; everyone else in the band is disposable. Mick could not tour as The Rolling Stones without Keith, Page could not go on the road claiming to be Led Zeppelin without Plant. Queen had a hell of a hard time convincing people that Paul Rogers was a worthy replacement for Freddie Mercury, but no-one other than hardcore Queen fans gave a shit about the fact that John Deacon wasn't on bass. Drummers and bassists are pretty much disposable (unless they're Flea in the Chilis); note that Page, Plant and Jones were able to get away with calling themselves Led Zeppelin, even though they had the wrong Bonham in the drum stool. There would be a fucking uproar if Liam Gallagher toured as Oasis with the members of Beady Eye, even though they're the most recent Oasis line-up minus Noel Gallagher; by the same token, were Liam and Noel to get back together with a bunch of other musicians backing them, they could quite happily call themselves Oasis.
Axl could tour with his current band, replacing any one of the guitarists with Slash, and all the naysayers, the idiot DJs slating him and his band, the watercooler gossip, would just melt away. Because GN'R is, as far as the vast majority of the record-buying public are concerned, Axl and Slash. If Axl brought Izzy in as a regular member, the hardcore fans would go mental - but the general public couldn't care less (despite the fact that Izzy was, ironically, more crucial to the original line-up than Slash). If Axl brought Buckethead back, some fans - a subset of a subset of fans - would go mad for it, but Buckethead doesn't have the iconic resonance with the general public that Slash does.
So if you were a ruthless businessperson looking to tour a "reunited" GN'R, you would want Axl and Slash up there. Duff and Izzy would be bonuses, and no-one really gives a toss who's playing the drums (sorry Matt and Steven. And Josh. And Brain. And Frank.). The trouble for those ruthless businesspeople is, Axl doesn't want to play their game.
great post, 100% on the money
- elevendayempire
- Rep: 96
Re: Axl fires back at Irv with lawsuit
Having said that, if Axl had ridden the wave of publicity in 2001/02 and released Chinese Democracy then (ie worked out a bit, got himself a vocal trainer, put on a decent performance at the VMAs and released the album soon afterwards) there was a chance that he could've got the general public to accept Buckethead as the new GN'R guitarist.
Look at the coverage of the band back then; Bucket - through a combination of his talent and his out-there image - was close to being accepted as a similarly "iconic" figure as Slash. Had Axl been willing (or able) to capitalise on that, I reckon that he could've cemented the '02 line-up in the minds of the general public as GN'R.
Even Bucket's freaky image wasn't that much of an issue, in the days when you had the likes of Slipknot and Wes Borland on MTV. It's only in the years since that Buckethead's odd image has become a stick to beat Axl with; back then it was more a case of, "Okay, he looks like a freak but Axl clearly thinks he has the chops to fill Slash's shoes, and do the lead guitar on the album he's been working on for nearly a decade..."
- elevendayempire
- Rep: 96
Re: Axl fires back at Irv with lawsuit
Leaving aside the not-inconsiderable issue that Axl teaming up with the old band would inevitably mean shitting on people who he considers friends and who've been loyal to him for a decade or more in some cases, I could sort-of see a compromise line-up working.
Fortus on rhythm (he's more reliable than Izzy, plus he can jump around on stage in a way which Slash and his pacemaker can't), Sorum or Frank on drums, Duff and Slash rounding out the band with Dizzy and Pitman on keys. That'd keep a roughly even balance between the Axl and the Slash camps. Izzy could drop in for odd gigs and have a songwriting role on the next album, and Huge could contribute songs.
That could be workable (and, crucially, could be billed as a GN'R reunion) - but as I said above, that'd mean giving DJ, Frank, Bumble and Tommy the boot. And I really couldn't see Axl doing that to his friends; why would he fuck over Tommy, who's stood by him since 1996, just to tour with someone he's described as a cancer?
