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Re: The enigmatic Beavan album ('98-00)
most of the people say there was 32-36 A-list finished songs...that is what shook down out of all the "ideas". This is consistent from Axl to Tommy to Bumble to Brain to Beaven right there in a recent interview to alot of others. Tommy specifically said there were 22 other songs done that didn't make it on to Chinese. Why is that hard to wrap your head around? The Chinese Democracy sessions boiled down to about 2 and a half albums of recorded material. Let's call it 2 albums and a few b-sides.
Re: The enigmatic Beavan album ('98-00)
I'm with Sky Dog, there.
Axl, Beavan, Freese and others have been consistent in saying two albums' worth of music, actual songs, was in the can.
Late 1998: "The record just needed a lead vocal and a mix. [...] If Axl had recorded vocals, it would have been an absolutely contemporary record in 1999." (James Barber, Poptones, 10/16/05)
I'd say these were mostly sketches and ideas.
Late 1999: "We've been working on, I don't know, 70 songs." (Axl, 11/08/99)
Here, Axl's likely referring to both sketches and songs.
Early 2000: "When I left, there were two lists, the Master list ('Here's the 20 songs we're concentrating on') and the B list ('Here's the other 20 songs, we'll finish them one day and we'll see what happens')." (Josh Freese, Podomatic, 04/13)
Freese's numbers corroborate with Beavan; these were, by all accounts, more songs than sketches.
Late 2000: "Axl: We are ready to mix." (Bob Ezrin, HitChannel, 04/12/12)
After drums were re-recorded and a batch of new songs were written with Bucket & Brain...
Late 2001: "Mixes were being finished... 'I felt we had a well finished version of The Blues, Madagascar, Chinese Democracy. Atlas Shrugged was pretty good.'" (Tom Zutaut, Classic Rock, 04/08)
I think Axl's been singled out as the sole cause for the delays up to late 2001 for no good reason. All things point out to him being ready to mix the Beavan album, but Interscope head Jimmy Iovine, an even more notorious trend-chaser than Axl, got cold feet. His reaction would've made Axl more insecure about releasing CD, coupled with the lukewarm reception of OMG.
A bigger mystery is what the hell happened with the album from 2002 onwards, with Axl as the designated driver. Instead of just mixing and packaging the work done with RTB and Zutaut, Axl commissioned Marco Beltrami and Paul Buckmaster to work with orchestrations on songs. To me, that's a mindbending moment - all we know adds up to the conclusion that the album could've been released by the 2002 tour.
They had the RTB mixes, the works. Axl would've done himself an immense favour by letting the first album drop there and then, while fiddling around with the second one for the next 2 years, if he'd like.
I'd really like to know that part of the story. Axl seemed out of place on the '02 tour. While he said he was touring against his better judgement on the UYI's, that goes double for the ill-fated ClearChannel tour. Something had really gotten underneath his skin since completing mixes the year before.
- A Private Eye
- Rep: 77
Re: The enigmatic Beavan album ('98-00)
A bigger mystery is what the hell happened with the album from 2002 onwards, with Axl as the designated driver. Instead of just mixing and packaging the work done with RTB and Zutaut, Axl commissioned Marco Beltrami and Paul Buckmaster to work with orchestrations on songs. To me, that's a mindbending moment - all we know adds up to the conclusion that the album could've been released by the 2002 tour.
They had the RTB mixes, the works. Axl would've done himself an immense favour by letting the first album drop there and then, while fiddling around with the second one for the next 2 years, if he'd like.
I'd really like to know that part of the story. Axl seemed out of place on the '02 tour. While he said he was touring against his better judgement on the UYI's, that goes double for the ill-fated ClearChannel tour. Something had really gotten underneath his skin since completing mixes the year before.
I think you can nearly pin point the week that the wheels fell off. Reading through a few bits August 02 seems like a crucial period in the saga. On the 15th Axl himself gives an interview indicating the album is essentially done and it's time to 'wrap up the baby'. He talks of UYI style world tour taking up the next 2/3 years along with the album release. He was ready and seemingly willing to go into full touring/promotion mode for the next few years.
Yet by August 30th, the VMA's he deliberately corrects Loader when he ask if they're going to see it soon. All previous info had hinted at a September release yet at the end of August 'soon' was not the word. Within a couple of months a tour that was meant to span years is in ruins and seemingly it's back to the drawing board.
My guess is one of the rumoured label rejections occured in this period, everything seemed ready to go mid August and yet you can almost watch the wheels fall off over the next 8 weeks. Why push on with a world tour when the album you're touring behind has just been kicked to touch?
Re: The enigmatic Beavan album ('98-00)
yep, then fast forward to Axl's last known comment on 5-30-2014....
Quote from: Axl Rose, May 30, 2014
“We recorded a lot of things before ‘Chinese Democracy‘ was out” ... “We’ve worked more on some of those things and we’ve written a few new things. But basically, we have what I call kind of the second half of ‘Chinese.’ That’s already recorded.” ... “Then we have a remix album made of the songs from ‘Chinese.’ That’s been done for a while, too. But after Vegas, we’re going to start looking very seriously and what we’re doing in that regard.”
That's all we got fellas...currently, we don't know who is in the band or out of the band, no tour dates and no earthly idea if we will ever hear "the second half of Chinese." 
Re: The enigmatic Beavan album ('98-00)
Why push on with a world tour when the album you're touring behind has just been kicked to touch?
Because there were huge financial liabilities. This article came out following the Philly riot.
"The tour, more than a year and a half in the planning [dating back to the Sanctuary/Big FD merger], was hobbled before it started by the failure of band leader Rose to deliver "Chinese Democracy," the tie-in album that has been promised for years. [...] In recent days, all involved have huddled to broker the messy cancellation. Among the issues: The $1-million advance given to Rose last year to secure the tour...
For this tour, Rose even traveled with his own psychiatrist, whose major responsibility apparently was convincing him it was important for his mental health to get onstage nightly and perform." (Chicago Sun-Times, 12/11/02)
Doug Goldstein took Guns to Merck Mercuriadis at Sanctuary, in a move that was almost replicated when Merck was taking Guns over to Irving Azoff at Front Line in 2006. The Sanctuary muscle allowed for the big US tour to be put into place, and the wheels started churning on it in the summer of 2001. The deals were made, itinerary drawn up (with a bit slapdash tour routing, if you ask me) and yes, it does look like the VMAs were booked for the unveiling of the first single and introducing the new lineup to American audiences.
Axl, for his part, actually appeared to share your sentiments. 'Why are we touring? I should be at home, finishing up the album.' He appeared rebellious and dragged his feet from Day 1 (Vancouver), because he knew what was coming for him. AFD setlists and nagging about how there's no album. The US comeback tour had whittled down into a nostalgia trip, which obviously made him displeased; there he was, standing on the shoulders of the old lineup, night in, night out. Hardly the outcome he signed up for.
I think you can nearly pin point the week that the wheels fell off. Reading through a few bits August 02 seems like a crucial period in the saga.
Pretty much.
"Guns 'n' Roses 'Chinese Democracy' has been rescheduled for release September 2, almost three years after the original release date. Axl Rose has recorded over 70 songs for this record with various producers." (Undercover News, 06/24/02)
"Guns N' Roses' record company and management has told Launch that rumors that the band's forthcoming album, Chinese Democracy, was to be released Labor Day weekend are untrue. A spokesperson for Interscope/Geffen spoke to the band's management, who replied to the unsubstantiated rumor, 'Where are they getting this from?'" (Launch, 06/25/02)
I think the Sep 2nd scoop came via Paul Cashmere, an Australian journalist, who's always had a good nose on the Guns front. He's more recently touched base with Fortus & co through Noise11. If anyone could've gotten the date right, I'd say it would've been him. Of course, the minute it went out, it was probably old news, which is why the label people were quick to rebutt the date. Does this mean the date was always just dust in the wind? Hardly, the more plausible explanation is that things changed.
"I thought [the album] was coming out [in] September [2002]." (Marco Beltrami, IGN, 07/20/03)
Oops. Beltrami acquitted Cashmere's source, right there. Also, the US tour was supposed to kick off right after the VMA's.
"Guns n' Roses will begin an overseas tour on August 14th in Hong Kong, which will include the Summer Sonic Festival in Tokyo and Osaka. The band will then head to Europe to play the Pukkelpop Festival in Belgium, the Carling Festival in Leeds, and two additional shows in London. G n' R are then planning to return to the U.S. for a tour to run from September to December." (Rolling Stone, 06/14/02)
"It doesn't look like Guns N' Roses will be touring North America in September after all... The popular rumor had been that a U.S. tour would be kicking off Sept. 2." (CDNow, 08/05/02)
September 2nd, again. An album launch on the eve of the comeback tour. That was seemingly the plan.
"Gunners had hoped to release the album in September but the record is now scheduled for November, according to Pratama." (Undercover News, 08/12/02)
The US tour start was postponed so that it would coincide with the album launch, again, in November.
On the 15th Axl himself gives an interview indicating the album is essentially done and it's time to 'wrap up the baby'. He talks of UYI style world tour taking up the next 2/3 years along with the album release. He was ready and seemingly willing to go into full touring/promotion mode for the next few years.
"We've sorted it down to what songs are on the record. What the sequence of the songs is. The album cover art is ready. Blah, blah, blah. If you're waiting...don't.
... 'I gave into a lot of pressure on Illusions both internally in Guns and externally in the press, those albums suffered as a consequence, it's not something I'm too excited to have to live with again." (Axl, GNROnline, 08/15/02)
As you can see, someone just threw down the gauntlet. 'I'll say when it's done.' Typical Axl, when he feels the powers that be are putting the onus on him, he shuts down and point blank refuses to play ball, if he feels the work is compromised as a consequence. That interview was damage control, an almost done album dangling in front of everyone like a carrot, but Axl's now holding onto it, saying he'll get around to finishing it on his own clock.
My guess is one of the rumoured label rejections occured in this period, everything seemed ready to go mid August and yet you can almost watch the wheels fall off over the next 8 weeks.
I agree with you on that whatever happened, it seemingly went down in between June and August. The tour was about to happen and the pressure was mounting. Unfortunately, this leaves us with the same basic question; why was the album pulled from the tentative September 2nd slot?
The label rejection, while possible, seems a bit awkward. Interscope was in the game for the money, frankly. The tour and the media hype would've surely sold them enough copies of the album to warrant a release, if only Axl was happy to give to them. Instead of a strong album, Interscope would've sufficed to a strong single, which they could've touted to panhandle the album.
Cold feet due to a lack of a single is possible, but you'd think they would've cut to the chase at this point, regardless.
- A Private Eye
- Rep: 77
Re: The enigmatic Beavan album ('98-00)
A Private Eye wrote:My guess is one of the rumoured label rejections occured in this period, everything seemed ready to go mid August and yet you can almost watch the wheels fall off over the next 8 weeks.
I agree with you on that whatever happened, it seemingly went down in between June and August. The tour was about to happen and the pressure was mounting. Unfortunately, this leaves us with the same basic question; why was the album pulled from the tentative September 2nd slot?
The label rejection, while possible, seems a bit awkward. Interscope was in the game for the money, frankly. The tour and the media hype would've surely sold them enough copies of the album to warrant a release, if only Axl was happy to give to them. Instead of a strong album, Interscope would've sufficed to a strong single, which they could've touted to panhandle the album.
Cold feet due to a lack of a single is possible, but you'd think they would've cut to the chase at this point, regardless.
I think a rejection on the basis of a lack of single is entirely possible. Hype would have got the album so far, yes, but maybe the label expected/needed a bit more by that point? Didn't we date Better to 03, which is arguably the bands strongest single type track to date? If that's true an 02 album has no Better on it and I believe CITR was rumoured to be the first single. I can understand, perhaps, why the label may have been twitchy at that prospect.
I seem to recall in 06 when Better first leaked someone who had worked on the album said they had never heard it before and that it was a new song to them and believed it was the bands attempt to consciously produce a 'hit single'? No idea who it was now but I'm sure I read it.
If that's the memo to Axl upon album submission in summer 02 ie come back with a couple of singles, it's perhaps no wonder things went south. Tweaks, finishing touches etc could be done between shows on a tour (in theory, 06 suggests easier said than done), however producing a couple of hit singles out of thin air while on the road probably looked a bit more daunting. We know Axl's no lover of touring anyway, it wouldn't take much to make him drag his heels and the prospect of a world tour supporting an album that was now further away than ever was probably too much to stomach.
Re: The enigmatic Beavan album ('98-00)
Richard said he helped flesh out better into a song with Robin. When did he join? 2001 or 02?
These have been some good posts, BTW.
An 02 album would have been killer. I don't think CITR was ever meant for the first album, so I don't think it was ever considered as a lead single. TWAT always seemed like a perfect first single for that band at that time.
Re: The enigmatic Beavan album ('98-00)
I seem to recall in 06 when Better first leaked someone who had worked on the album said they had never heard it before and that it was a new song to them and believed it was the bands attempt to consciously produce a 'hit single'? No idea who it was now but I'm sure I read it.
I vaguely remember it, too.
If that's the memo to Axl upon album submission in summer 02 ie come back with a couple of singles, it's perhaps no wonder things went south.
We’ve sorted it down to what songs are on the record. What the sequence of the songs is... There are a lot of new songs that were just done in the last year that we feel that ‘okay, well that bumps a lot of stuff off the previous list but it's time to stop that now and wrap up the baby. - Axl, GNROnline, 08/14/02
The band had written a bunch of new songs, including Shackler and Sorry. Hard to say if Better was there already. Technically, it could've happened, but Fortus was only three months into the band before the tour and he wrote riffs on it. Also, Better would've been pretty much the single everybody was asking for, unless their ears were painted on.
