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Re: Tony Scott Kills Himself
buzzsaw wrote:There's no need to get deeper. Help is available all over the place, it doesn't matter what your situation is. Homeless? There's help for that. Wife left you? There's help for that. Drug issues? There's help for that. One of the benefits of the pussification of America is that there are all kinds of social programs out there. All you have to do is ask.
There's help, yes.
The question is asking for it. Then, it becomes an issue of surviving to the next meeting with the helper. The responsibility to live the day without letting them negative notions slip under your skin.
That's not just one moment, it's a series of consecutive moments, where a person may try very hard to better his/her situation. A person is understandably in a quite vulnerable state at that point, with the environmental responses drawing the line on the world with or without you.
If positivity happens, the person has a shot to pull out of that unfortunate predicament that has just been evaded. But imagine you get a VERY bad day (which sometimes just happens out of nowhere to any one of us) just the day after you decide to live again. A person is suggestible in that state, and bad experience may lead to bad conclusions.
It's a big choice to go against the tidal wave and decide to stick around. Eventually, life gets better if you stay positive and seek out its good sides. But it's not an easy road by any chance and those who feel its too much for them, I think we need to give them the benefit of doubt.
Most people who end their lives have, up to that point, felt miserable, alone and afraid for whatever reasons. Even if we wouldn't agree with their actions, I personally feel they do warrant our sympathies during the course that led them to that point.
I don't disagree with most of what you're saying, but again, the option to get help has been there the whole time and the person chose not to get it. Very rarely (I'd say never, but I'll allow for some unique circumstance) does something ever pop up so quickly that getting help isn't an option. My point is people choose not to get help many, many times before suicide becomes what they consider to be the best option. That's what I mean by a choice...not that they actively think I'm not going to get help so I can kill myself later.
I feel like I've been pretty clear with what I'm saying, yet it's still being misinterpreted.
Re: Tony Scott Kills Himself
The option is there, always. Just that when you're wrapped up at the short end of your own existence, you don't see yourself worthy of help, you don't see the help as anything useful, and you probably think the world is a better place without you anyway. The long distance in suicides is gradually accepting the world has nothing to offer.
My familiar, who's visited my house and with whom I shared friends, ended her life this spring. We met just a day or so before. In retrospect, she appeared a bit more elusive than usual, but overall, very serene. The letters she left behind went on to suggest she'd finally made peace with things and was basically wrapping her life up.
Help just wasn't an option, because help was for her continued presence in this life.
Re: Tony Scott Kills Himself
Nobody that's taking it personally can have a conversation on this because they are basing it on one specific situation and analyzing that one situation. It puts you in a horrible position and it's impossible to have a rational discussion about it because there's nothing rational about knowing someone that chose to end their own life. It sucks. It's painful. It's often guilt-ridden.
Help was an option long before it got to that point. At some point maybe help stops being an option, and maybe by then it isn't a "choice" as I like to call it, but along the way there were choices made by that person that could have altered the situation had a different decision been made. Maybe by the time you met her, those decisions were made already. There are all sorts of maybes, but the one thing that's certain is that it didn't HAVE to end that way.
Almost everybody contemplates suicide at some point on some level. Some do it. Some try and fail. Most don't do it or try. That can't be explained away by saying all those that didn't were just stronger than those that did or they had smaller problems than those that did. It also can't just be explained away by choices they made, so maybe there's more to it that none of us understand.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Tony Scott Kills Himself
It's also worth remembering that sometimes the help doesn't work, so it's not as simple as 'the person chose not to get help".
Re: Tony Scott Kills Himself
Nobody that's taking it personally can have a conversation on this because they are basing it on one specific situation and analyzing that one situation.
Then what does this conversation base on? Free will against predestination?
There are all sorts of maybes, but the one thing that's certain is that it didn't HAVE to end that way.
No, it didn't.
People have been caught hanging mid-air, lying in bathtubs, or whatever, countless of times. They have been looked after and many of them have rebounded to live a long life, ending it in a far happier note.
But this has been through intervention and, following the near-death experience, "positive brainwashing" to get to deal with the situation. But a near-death shock is what's needed at that point.
This, I imagine, is because the thought of suicide lulls one into a mental state far removed from daily existence. You look at the room you are in, this may be the last time you set foot into it. You look at whatever problems you have and they now seem miniscule.
Before life can be brought in, that sense of power needs to leave the mind. As Freud would put it, the death drive needs to make way for Eros.
Re: Tony Scott Kills Himself
It may seem some of these reactions are overboard, but they make perfect sense.
People don't relate with suicide because of fear. There is an assumption some people make that if you can relate with someone who killed themselves or feel compassion for them, you are more likely to do it yourself. By demonizing suicide, people push it away and brand it as something they would never do.
It takes a lot to look at a suicide without any bias because at the back of our heads we always have that gnawing worry that if we understand why the person did it, we'll feel they were justified, and given similar circumstances would feel justified ourselves.
... rant over
Re: Tony Scott Kills Himself
Suicides do encourage some other people to commit suicides. This effect is the most potent in the people already contemplating on ending their lives, an example just helps them over their own limit. So I do agree with Neemo that a lot of that is a foundation that builds up over time - the foundation alone doesn't mean a person will eventually commit suicide, just raises their personal margin.
Suicide is a taboo nowadays, but in Ancient Rome and Japan, for instance, it was a widely accepted way of atonement. A lot of the demonizing comes off the religious/cultural background we have, which in the Western world is mostly Abrahamic religions.
This is so, because death takes you to a sphere beyond our current comprehension and people are prone seek a higher authority on that. It's understandable and very human, but also, just goes on to show how the common Westener has swept away the elderly, the ill and the suiciders from his daily grind.
A lot of people have a hard time grasping Death, even if they have a lifetime to come to terms with it.
Re: Tony Scott Kills Himself
Nobody that's taking it personally can have a conversation on this because they are basing it on one specific situation and analyzing that one situation.
And yet your entire view point comes from your own personal experience. Interesting and so hypocritical
Re: Tony Scott Kills Himself
buzzsaw wrote:Nobody that's taking it personally can have a conversation on this because they are basing it on one specific situation and analyzing that one situation.
And yet your entire view point comes from your own personal experience. Interesting and so hypocritical
No, I'm not taking it personally. There's a difference between taking something personally and having a personal experience.
My entire point of view comes from studying the subject, being married to a psychology major that has worked with the mentally ill, knowing people that have committed suicide, and yes personal experience. Yours appears to come from a very personal place and you've taken every comment so personally that even a month later you had to come back here and revive the thread. Who's taking it personally again???
