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Re: Allied Forces act over Libya
I put the WW2 responsibility on England and France because they received the reperations from Germany, and they're the ones who allowed Hitler to violate the agreement in their own backyard.
Ok, fair point. They didn't act on it based on their unwillingness to get into a serious conflict. They had just come out of one world war. They, instead, decided to retract to their own countries and ignore whatever came their way. I feel it's contradicting towards your opinions of how US/Europe should handle their foreign policies now, that's all.
Re: Allied Forces act over Libya
No it's not. Dude are you serious?
If Canada & Mexico had their own Hitler's and/or Nazi parties, we not only would get involved, we wouldn't even allow it to take off. Especially considering Canada & Mexico have basically been the U.S. 2nd & 3rd in command militarily for years on the North American contienent.
We're neighbors, and we try to get along. That's how it works. If it didn't, we'd MAKE it work. As the old saying goes - "fences make great neighbors"
England & France ignoring a problem like that literally in their backyard, 'cause their problems to get 10x worse.
The U.S. today staying out of Europe/Asia, and becoming more isolationist, is simply for the fact of us not wanting, not needing, or not being able to afford to police the WORLD. Meaning, crossing either the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean, to have to go kick in some dude's door and say "don't do that".
If England & France today can't handle their own shit - that's not our problem. It only becomes our problem when they DON'T handle their shit, and a Nazi-type party takes over and becomes a superpower in the Eastern world, and becomes a THREAT to the U.S. Not Norway, not Holland, not Czech-Republic, etc.
My point is - there's no way they are the same thing man. Apples n' oranges.
Re: Allied Forces act over Libya
Everyone ignored it. You did, we did, France did, UK did. You ignored it longer than most actually.
And the basics are the same thing. You're actually putting it out there yourself.
France and UK can handle their own, and especially based on lessons previous learned. However, today, their threat is our threat, is YOUR threat.
Germany wasn't a threat to you in 1940 was it, and you stayed out of it for two years. Without Japan, you would have stayed out of it until the Germans were knocking on your front door, and believe me, they were. They had their subs as close so they could literally observe the lights of New York and Miami. That's a bit too late if you ask me. I'm not even sure what you mean by a threat to the US and not Norway, Holland or Czech.
Re: Allied Forces act over Libya
Everyone ignored it. You did, we did, France did, UK did. You ignored it longer than most actually.
And the basics are the same thing. You're actually putting it out there yourself.
France and UK can handle their own, and especially based on lessons previous learned. However, today, their threat is our threat, is YOUR threat.
Germany wasn't a threat to you in 1940 was it, and you stayed out of it for two years. Without Japan, you would have stayed out of it until the Germans were knocking on your front door, and believe me, they were. They had their subs as close so they could literally observe the lights of New York and Miami. That's a bit too late if you ask me. I'm not even sure what you mean by a threat to the US and not Norway, Holland or Czech.
Yeah mate, thank fuck Hitler made the war changing and catastrophic mistake of waking the Russian Bear, or me and you would be speaking German today lol 
How many Russians died as they bulldozed their way to Berlin, was it millions?
Re: Allied Forces act over Libya
DCK wrote:Everyone ignored it. You did, we did, France did, UK did. You ignored it longer than most actually.
And the basics are the same thing. You're actually putting it out there yourself.
France and UK can handle their own, and especially based on lessons previous learned. However, today, their threat is our threat, is YOUR threat.
Germany wasn't a threat to you in 1940 was it, and you stayed out of it for two years. Without Japan, you would have stayed out of it until the Germans were knocking on your front door, and believe me, they were. They had their subs as close so they could literally observe the lights of New York and Miami. That's a bit too late if you ask me. I'm not even sure what you mean by a threat to the US and not Norway, Holland or Czech.
Yeah mate, thank fuck Hitler made the war changing and catastrophic mistake of waking the Russian Bear, or me and you would be speaking German today lol
How many Russians died as they bulldozed their way to Berlin, was it millions?
I was about to say, but to put it on the Russians alone would be stupid, just as much as it would be stupid to put it all on the US for saving us.
And yes, millions of Russians died, civilians and miltary. The difference in a nutshell between Russia and Germany in terms of cruelty was Germanys lebensraum and territorial needs, while Russia focused on their domestic "policies". One may always argue which was the worst, which is quite pointless really. Unless you're trying to be funny or something, not quite sure if you're yanking my chain. Interesting though, that communism and nazism went head on, almost taking both out in the process. Hitlers armies died on the Russian front, that's a fact. With a silent and non aggressive Russia out of the war, I have no doubts we would have taken Germany down anyway, but it would have taken years. Perhaps a whole decade. The outcome of that one would have been a massively powerful sleeping giant in Russia, ready to swoop in on us all if they had wanted. "If's" concerning WW2 is always fun, but not very constructive.
Re: Allied Forces act over Libya
No Im not yanking you lol, I'm grateful for every countries effort in bringing down the Nazis, and especially Russia, cause if Germany hadnt backed off from their assault on Britain and made the blunder of taking the war to the east, Britain would have fell. We were just holding them off, and it took all our resouces to beat off their final assault on us... if they hadnt decided to change plan after being beaten back in the "Battle Of Britain" and attack Russia instead putting all their resources into fighting Britain, we wouldnt have been able to hold off another prolonged assault.
Re: Allied Forces act over Libya
Not really relevant but I'll tell you's anyway cause i'm half cut! Around the hills where I stay they used to light fires and this was to confuse the Nazi bombers where Glasgow was, Glasgow and the surrounding towns where blacked out - no lights on and bedsheets over the windows etc.
When I was a wee boy me and my pals used to go digging up the old bombshells, they were all rustied away mostly but you found some good one where they were recognisable as a bomb.
Point is, I cant help but think just how dangerous it was for us wee lads to be hacking away at hillsides with sticks trying to expose bombs lol!!
I remember the first time I brought one home my mum screamed and chucked it straight out my bedroom window 
Re: Allied Forces act over Libya
France and UK can handle their own, and especially based on lessons previous learned. However, today, their threat is our threat, is YOUR threat.
We've yet to see a case where they can "handle their own", especially France. A near second holocaust in their own backyard required US intervention. During that Russia-Georgia skirmish in 2008 that could have spread quickly, I didn't see them take much action although not a great example as Russia was in the right on the issue and the EU did attempt to ease tensions. Having Bush running his mouth was certainly a big help for them as they knew if it spiraled out of control, they all yell "Article 5!!" and Bush comes to the rescue. Once the US handed over major operations to those countries in Libya, it went from ass kicking and Gaddafi running for cover to a stalemate. Both countries are seeking a quick exit from the conflict now that other NATO countries have already bailed. France went from begging for US/NATO intervention to wanting out. They also went from demanding Gaddafi's removal before any cease fire could be negotiated to willing to allow him to remain in power if it means they can leave. That type of strategy is the LAST thing you do in such a conflict, and you definitely don't let the enemy know you're considering this.
Europe now willing to give a guy a free pass that they recently accused of "crimes against humanity". You're right though......that's being based on lessons previously learned which is the appeasement of Hitler and Milosevic. It worked so well then might as well give it a third chance.
Only incident I know of where a major European power could "handle their own" was when Thatcher bitch slapped Argentina during that Falklands War.
The reason your threats are our threats is based on an alliance that shouldn't even exist anymore.
With a silent and non aggressive Russia out of the war, I have no doubts we would have taken Germany down anyway,
PLEASE. Europe was burnt toast until the US and Soviets decided it was time to liberate that continent.
Re: Allied Forces act over Libya
Everyone ignored it. You did, we did, France did, UK did. You ignored it longer than most actually.
And the basics are the same thing. You're actually putting it out there yourself.
France and UK can handle their own, and especially based on lessons previous learned. However, today, their threat is our threat, is YOUR threat.
Germany wasn't a threat to you in 1940 was it, and you stayed out of it for two years. Without Japan, you would have stayed out of it until the Germans were knocking on your front door, and believe me, they were. They had their subs as close so they could literally observe the lights of New York and Miami. That's a bit too late if you ask me. I'm not even sure what you mean by a threat to the US and not Norway, Holland or Czech.
Now you're posing hypotheticals that you have no clue about.
You have no clue that the U.S. would've stayed out of it until the Germans were on our back door.
It's hilarious that you even consider that we were "too late", considering the fact that Hitler never affected the U.S. Apparently we weren't too late.
If Europe would've handled their own goddamn shit, which they continue not to do (especially France)
We wouldn't have had to be there would we?
The only reason we have to continue to be in that part of the world, is because we can't trust those guys over there to do it for us.
Re: Allied Forces act over Libya
Perfect timing for NATO as the alliance was starting to walk on shaky ground with various members pulling out or on the verge of doing so. Looks like this conflict is coming to an end but God only knows what's next in this situation.
He has ruled Libya for 42 years, but Muammar Gaddafi's defiant regime was on Sunday entering its final hours as rebel fighters entered the capital, Tripoli.
In another day of dramatic advances, opposition fighters pushed forward from the western town of Zawiya along the coastal highway to Tripoli. From the frontline in the village of Maya, the chimneys of Tripoli's power station could be seen shimmering in the distance. The regime's last moments were being played out in a green landscape of orange groves, olive trees and seaside restaurants.
Ahmad Gaid, a 25-year-old fighter, gave his verdict on government troops, who on Sunday retreated to, and then further beyond, the "27 bridge" – 17 miles (27km) from the centre of Tripoli. "They are becoming weak. They are very frightened," he said.
Gaid had taken temporary shelter together with medical staff in a roadside house. Up ahead was an enemy sniper. Bullets whined past. A rebel pickup truck responded with 12.5 anti-aircraft artillery: an unmistakable, thunderous boom-boom-boom-boom.
The fighters had sent in their one tank, which promptly broke down. "There was something wrong with its chamber," Mohamad, a 25-year-old Libyan-American volunteer, said calmly.
Rebel vehicles streamed to and from the battle. Some fighters were in a hypnotic daze. One staggered into the shelter and recounted how his vehicle veered off the road after its tyre was shot at. A bullet hit one of his comrades in the face. "What happened to him?" he inquired. "He died," Mohamad replied.
He said he was hoping to rescue his US-educated father and brother, both rounded up by the regime and now in jail in Tripoli.
The rebels may lack heavy weapons, but they have one supreme advantage: allied airpower. On the road from Zawiya to Maya, an air strike had flattened a Turkish restaurant used by Gaddafi's troops as a command point. The building was a skeletal ruin, the restaurant's sandbagged entrance blown out.
Nearby, opposition militiamen were combing through a dense forest of cypresses. Behind them was the town of Zawiya, definitively seized by the rebels on Saturday following a week-long battle, and now a ruined mess.
Two plastic mannequins lay surreally in one street; most of the buildings in the central square had been destroyed. The city was peaceful on Sunday.
The drama of Libya's six-month revolution has now shifted to further along the coast, where the final act awaits. On the southern road to Tripoli, volunteers from the Tripoli brigade massed near the government-held town of Aziziya, 25 miles south of Tripoli. They were camped out at a primary school awaiting orders. Up ahead, Nato jets were pounding the sites from where Gaddafi's troops had been imprudently launching Grad missiles.
"We will win this war," Mohammed, a 24-year-old law student, declared. Why? "Because we believe in God. God and then Nato," he replied. His faith wasn't misplaced: every few minutes there was a loud, percussive, earth-shaking rumble, as Nato jets pulverised the way ahead. After each strike, the fighters broke into chants of "Allahu Akbar".
"Morale is very high. The rebels are controlling most of Tripoli," he said.
On Saturday, a Libyan opposition TV channel claimed Gaddafi and two of his sons had fled the country. It offered no proof and the regime flatly denied the report. But it triggered a pre-planned and well co-ordinated uprising in several parts of the capital, as well as celebrations in rebel-held Benghazi, Misrata, and Zintan, the opposition stronghold in Libya's western mountains.
Issam Mohmed Shebani, the son of a prominent Libyan exile, said at least 133 civilians had been killed in Tripoli's fierce fighting, citing opposition sources.
Other fighters preparing to launch the final assault on Tripoli said Gaddafi's desperate soldiers were firing mortars into residential areas. Nabil Nassar left London two months ago to join the anti-Gaddafi war. He said he had spoken to his family bunkered down in Tripoli. "There is non-stop fighting since dawn. Most families have got some weapons. They are also managing to get ammunition. But government troops are firing on them from the top of the mobile network tower," he said. Nassar added that he lived in Britain and has an MA in diplomatic relations. He left the UK, he said, having tired of political tactics. "I got bored of taking part in protests," he said.
According to his relatives, opposition areas inside Tripoli had set up committees to protect residential areas and were manning their own checkpoints.
Behind the frontline, there was a mood of triumph and certainty that the overthrow of Libya's hated dictator was close. Families driving past checkpoints hooted and waved V-signs; rebels responded by cracking off celebratory shots.
On a roadside skip, someone had hung a stuffed effigy of Gaddafi. They had used a lot of white wool to improvise the leader's unruly hairdo. A petrol station had reopened, prompting long queues; a stall had set up business selling seasonal coriander and fennel. And what of Gaddafi himself? The fighters made clear on Sunday what would happen to him when – and if – they got hold of him. "We will kill him very slowly," one said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/au … intcmp=239
NATO issues statement:
The Gaddafi regime is clearly crumbling. The sooner Gaddafi realises that he cannot win the battle against his own people, the better – so that the Libyan people can be spared further bloodshed and suffering.
The Libyan people have suffered tremendously under Gaddafi's rule for over four decades. Now they have a chance for a new beginning. Now is the time for all threats against civilians to stop, as the United Nations Security Council demanded. Now is the time to create a new Libya – a state based on freedom, not fear; democracy, not dictatorship; the will of the many, not the whims of a few.
That transition must come peacefully. It must come now. And it must be led and defined by the Libyan people.
Nato is ready to work with the Libyan people and with the Transitional National Council, which holds a great responsibility. They must make sure that the transition is smooth and inclusive, that the country stays united, and that the future is founded on reconciliation and respect for human rights.
Gaddafi's remaining allies and forces also have a great responsibility. It is time to end their careers of violence. The world is watching them. This is their opportunity to side with the Libyan people and choose the right side of history.
We will continue to monitor military units and key facilities, as we have since March, and when we see any threatening moves towards the Libyan people, we will act in accordance with our UN mandate.
Our goal throughout this conflict has been to protect the people of Libya, and that is what we are doing.
Because the future of Libya belongs to the Libyan people. And it is for the international community to assist them, with the United Nations and the Contact Group playing a leading role. Nato wants the Libyan people to be able to decide their future in freedom and in peace. Today, they can start building that future.
