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Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
Ali didn't start that.....I agree with Ali. Mikka is being petty. Richard does a ton of studio work. Mikka has no idea what he is creating/writing.
I don't care either way. Richard is a nice player but in the end, isn't really my style.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
I will say though, that the I think the final album tracks sound much better to me in many cases, in terms of mix and overall sound quality. I love the final versions of "I.R.S." and "Better" with Frank's drum parts in there and their final mix and quality.
I agree. I prefer the final version of every track - the only one I'd even consider changing is catcher - and even that's not because of the Ron/Brian debate - it's because I liked how the paino used to dominate the opening and drive the song at the start and it's kind of hidden in the mix now. But that's a personal preference, and in general I think the final changes really did finish the songs.
As i said in another thread I think it was like adding paint or varnish to wood that's been sanded back and crafted...just completed the product.
I consider a 40-year old _talented_ guitar player lazy, if he has zero writing credit and doesn't show an ounce of interest to create something.
I actually disagree on principle with this, weather or not Richard has writing credits.
I beleive there are two kinds of musical ability, the ability to peform and render something, and the ability to create it.
Luckily many of our absolute most famous and loved musicians have both skills, but if a person, (and I wouldn't know about richard), has only one of those skills, that doesn't make them lazy.
For example, I think as a composer I could easily compose in my head guitar parts that are beyond my skill level to play, and I'm also sure that there's people out there with incredible technical skills in terms of their ability to move their hands - but who don't compose a melody as nice as someone like Slash for example.
I just see skill at the instrument and skill at composing as two distinct traits, that people have in varying amounts. In rock it's common for people to have both, but in other music forms - like classical music - it's common for singers and violinists and stuff to be famous from their ability to play music composed by people hundreds of years before them - there is no requirment for them to also be creative.
It's really the use of the word "Lazy" that I think is inaccurate. Someone with Richard's skill on the instrument can't be lazy - the amount of practise needed to be able to master the instrument to the technical degree people like him have involves a lot of effort and disicipline. He may or may not be creative...but I wouldn't say he's lazy.
But i guess you are saying you have a prefrence for musicans who compose more as well as peform, which is a valid as an opinion.
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
Ali wrote:I will say though, that the I think the final album tracks sound much better to me in many cases, in terms of mix and overall sound quality. I love the final versions of "I.R.S." and "Better" with Frank's drum parts in there and their final mix and quality.
I agree. I prefer the final version of every track - the only one I'd even consider changing is catcher - and even that's not because of the Ron/Brian debate - it's because I liked how the paino used to dominate the opening and drive the song at the start and it's kind of hidden in the mix now. But that's a personal preference, and in general I think the final changes really did finish the songs.
As i said in another thread I think it was like adding paint or varnish to wood that's been sanded back and crafted...just completed the product.
Mikkamakka wrote:I consider a 40-year old _talented_ guitar player lazy, if he has zero writing credit and doesn't show an ounce of interest to create something.
I actually disagree on principle with this, weather or not Richard has writing credits.
I beleive there are two kinds of musical ability, the ability to peform and render something, and the ability to create it.
Luckily many of our absolute most famous and loved musicians have both skills, but if a person, (and I wouldn't know about richard), has only one of those skills, that doesn't make them lazy.
For example, I think as a composer I could easily compose in my head guitar parts that are beyond my skill level to play, and I'm also sure that there's people out there with incredible technical skills in terms of their ability to move their hands - but who don't compose a melody as nice as someone like Slash for example.
I just see skill at the instrument and skill at composing as two distinct traits, that people have in varying amounts. In rock it's common for people to have both, but in other music forms - like classical music - it's common for singers and violinists and stuff to be famous from their ability to play music composed by people hundreds of years before them - there is no requirment for them to also be creative.
It's really the use of the word "Lazy" that I think is inaccurate. Someone with Richard's skill on the instrument can't be lazy - the amount of practise needed to be able to master the instrument to the technical degree people like him have involves a lot of effort and disicipline. He may or may not be creative...but I wouldn't say he's lazy.
But i guess you are saying you have a prefrence for musicans who compose more as well as peform, which is a valid as an opinion.
Good point on Richard. Someone with his level of skill, not just as a guitarist, but as a multi-instrumentalist cannot be lazy otherwise his skills would not develop to be a professional musician.
But, to say Richard doesn't have any interest in creating is incredibly presumptuous. We don't know what Richard does or does not have interest in. He may simply have not been afforded the opportunity to have any writing contributions to GN'R be presented to the public yet.
Ali
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
Don't you miss HTGTH? That's your place, go back to the fellow brainwashed zealots.
I like you mikka but that comment is way out of line. Ali is most definitely welcome here. In fact, I wish there were more like him here. I know this site has always catered to the "realists", but I like to get that other point of view. It makes discussions much more interesting.
Ali(or anyone) don't need advice on where to post. Ali and most Evo members are at multiple GNR forums. He likes to post here, just like YOU.
As long as he doesn't become a major troll(and he never has) and doesn't break one of the few rules here, he can post any time he wants to.
the record was finished, even mixed at least 5 years prior to its release. the 2006 "demos" are chinese democracy as it should have been released.
Yep. Those were not demos. They were finished tracks for the album in 2002 had it materialized. I find it insane how such a minority of fans realize this.
This is why I find Apex(and others) comments on finishing the album in 2003 onwards to be absurd(no offense, you make great points on the subject). I get what you guys are saying but I disagree. The album was finished in 2001-02. Axl himself stated this. Track list was finalized, had been mixed/mastered, cover art/liner notes also finished.
A Ron wank and a dog whistle known as Fortus did not need to be present to "finish" the album. It was finished before Fortus even entered the equation.
Regarding this Fortus discussion, his discography not very impressive and I just never liked the guy. My years of stating he would have a miniscule contribution on CD or not even be on it was ridiculed for years. The album's release vindicated all my comments. Like madagas said a few years ago regarding the CD saga, " Hard to believe but you were right James".
I LOVE how during those leaks the Fortus fanatics kept raving on his contributions to CD. Saying how the Madagascar solo was one of the most beautiful solos ever and that his solo on The Blues was gonna be a highlight of the album. Take into account this garbage was spewed by Bucket haters.
The only thing the album proved to those douche bags was how much ass Bucket kicked and that instead of Fortus being the "secret weapon" of the project like they believed, Bucket was that weapon.
WaRose is right about the dead horse aspect of this, but the saga itself(NOT the release but the years leading up to it) will always be fascinating and as long as GNR fans who experienced it are alive, it will regularly come up in discussions.
and personally, I think new Gnr should have only been two guitarists-Finck on rhythm and Bucket on lead...Tobias can mess around with Axl in the studio all he wants but the parts should have been played by Finck and Bucket.
I think an even better situation would have been having ONE guitarist during the studio sessions....Buckethead. Use these other guys as touring musicians.
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
All those demos needed was to be mixed. I've heard mixed versions of the 2002 Chinese Democracy, with all the effects/Pittman and Bucket, turned up. It sounds fantastic. I know a lot of people prefer Ron's version with the added guitar and layered vocals, but it feels over done to me.
I still think ITW benefited from Ron and Axl's 2006 tinkering, though.
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
Yep. Those were not demos. They were finished tracks for the album in 2002 had it materialized. I find it insane how such a minority of fans realize this.
This is why I find Apex(and others) comments on finishing the album in 2003 onwards to be absurd(no offense, you make great points on the subject). I get what you guys are saying but I disagree. The album was finished in 2001-02. Axl himself stated this. Track list was finalized, had been mixed/mastered, cover art/liner notes also finished.
For the umpteenth time...
I do believe there was a release-worthy album in existence in around 2002. By this I mean it had all the characteristics of such; track listing, artwork, liner notes, mixing... Axl did say it out loud, yes. Tom Zutaut's Classic Rock interview also supports this.
I also happen to believe the same applies to the time when OMG was released. They could've had an album out in late 99/early 00, if only Axl had opted to OK it.
The released album has little remaining from the work put on by Zoot/RTB (2000/2001). The liner notes mention Sean Beavan (98-00) as a pivotal figure, while the end result is obviously mostly Axl and Caram Costanzo. They didn't release the OMG-era album.
They released the album Axl and Costanzo crafted from the material accumulated through the years. Some of the additional recording got pretty superfluous (like Baz on the chorus of Sorry), some carried a distinct aesthetic purpose (Ron's fretless on CD).
To me, CD travels way beyond any reason or artistic license when Geffen cut funding in early 2004 and Axl still managed to tinker on the album for over three years, both on his own money and the contributions of Sanctuary Group.
Three years on finishing touches? Call the spade for what it is, the man was obviously having a good deal of issues with the protracted recording process and was searching for a way to end it. And that's putting it nicely.
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
"It feels right, the timing, and a lot of things. We've sorted it down to what songs are on the record. What the sequence of the songs is. The album cover art is ready. Blah, blah, blah. Now that we feel that we have clarity as to the album we're trying to make, we're wrapping it up. " (Axl, GNROnline, 08/15/02)
yep...2002....I wouldn't mind hearing that album and track sequence...whatever it was and whatever state it was in. 
