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Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
Don't you wonder what motivates a creative person like Tommy to continue with Guns? They very likely haven't written any new material since 2003. It's been 8 years. You'd want more than rerecord stuff alone, wait for others to rerecord stuff or tour almost the same setlist in every 4 years. I know he's doing SA, he's doing his solo thing, but there's nothing to exceed his creativity in GN'R. He's not Pitman who seems to be the closest person to Axl in the tinkering game. Dizzy has never had any ambition, same goes for Frank. Even the lazy Richard had enough and got side projects to tour (or to get some more money). I really don't understand why these guys like Tommy and Ron stick with Axl, except the fat cheque.
The "lazy" Richard? Uh, o.k. If you say so. 
Ali
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
apex-twin wrote:James Lofton wrote:I find that incredibly hard to believe. Take into account Bucket bailed a year later, and it's REALLY hard to believe.
Why would Axl need Ron to contribute to decade-old songs if not for this very reason?
Microscopic hair splitting. An album that needs Ron to wank over a finished Riad or Fortus to strum an inaudible guitar is an album I consider finished. It's not like these were demos and the post 2002 lineup walked in and created an album to Axl's liking.
Are we to believe that if Ron, Frank, and Fortus do not contribute, Chinese Democracy is unfinished and we're still waiting for it in 2011?
Do you find it hard to believe Axl decided to recycle every take from the CD sessions to rebuild every jigsaw puzzle of a song after RTB and Tom Zutaut had left him with a near-finished album simply waiting to be mixed?
The songs remained the same. Axl simply tore every last bit out of them, toiled with each part, scrapped, reinstated or rerecorded everything. The album was recompiled in lack of a better word.
The actual album, as Merck put it, would in this instance refer to approved takes on different parts and the combinations thereof. Again, no-one's suggesting song structures were significantly altered.
They had the Library of Congress of raw material there. Each player played each of his part with at least a handful of variations. The Brian May solo in CITR is a good example; there's not just one take, but a multitude of takes crammed into one in ProTools.
Even if the whole band would've walked out after the 02 tour, Axl would've still had enough resources to toil with the album for several years, without seeking replacements.
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
apex-twin wrote:James Lofton wrote:I find that incredibly hard to believe. Take into account Bucket bailed a year later, and it's REALLY hard to believe.
Why would Axl need Ron to contribute to decade-old songs if not for this very reason?
Microscopic hair splitting. An album that needs Ron to wank over a finished Riad or Fortus to strum an inaudible guitar is an album I consider finished. It's not like these were demos and the post 2002 lineup walked in and created an album to Axl's liking.
Are we to believe that if Ron, Frank, and Fortus do not contribute, Chinese Democracy is unfinished and we're still waiting for it in 2011?
Possibly. The problem is that it doesn't matter what you or I consider finished. It only matters what Axl considers finished and right and ready for release. He had to feel right with the album before it could come out, which is as it should be, frankly.
Ali
- Mikkamakka
- Rep: 217
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
Mikkamakka wrote:Don't you wonder what motivates a creative person like Tommy to continue with Guns? They very likely haven't written any new material since 2003. It's been 8 years. You'd want more than rerecord stuff alone, wait for others to rerecord stuff or tour almost the same setlist in every 4 years. I know he's doing SA, he's doing his solo thing, but there's nothing to exceed his creativity in GN'R. He's not Pitman who seems to be the closest person to Axl in the tinkering game. Dizzy has never had any ambition, same goes for Frank. Even the lazy Richard had enough and got side projects to tour (or to get some more money). I really don't understand why these guys like Tommy and Ron stick with Axl, except the fat cheque.
The "lazy" Richard? Uh, o.k. If you say so.
Ali
I consider a 40-year old _talented_ guitar player lazy, if he has zero writing credit and doesn't show an ounce of interest to create something. He's quite comfortable with playing other people's songs, be it Guns N' Roses, Thin Lizzy or whatever.
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
James Lofton wrote:apex-twin wrote:Why would Axl need Ron to contribute to decade-old songs if not for this very reason?
Microscopic hair splitting. An album that needs Ron to wank over a finished Riad or Fortus to strum an inaudible guitar is an album I consider finished. It's not like these were demos and the post 2002 lineup walked in and created an album to Axl's liking.
Are we to believe that if Ron, Frank, and Fortus do not contribute, Chinese Democracy is unfinished and we're still waiting for it in 2011?
Possibly. The problem is that it doesn't matter what you or I consider finished. It only matters what Axl considers finished and right and ready for release. He had to feel right with the album before it could come out, which is as it should be, frankly.
Ali
the real problem is, that axl had the final say in this project all these years.. we`re really beating a dead horse here. all these things were discussed for years and years. the record was finished, even mixed at least 5 years prior to its release. the 2006 "demos" are chinese democracy as it should have been released. it boggles my mind to listen to perfectly mixed "demos" like better and irs from 2006 compared to the amateurish cut and paste job we got as the finisehd product in 2008... anyways... i`m going to bed now, it`s too depressing to deal with all this bullshit 
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
It's not like these were demos and the post 2002 lineup walked in and created an album to Axl's liking.
Are we to believe that if Ron, Frank, and Fortus do not contribute, Chinese Democracy is unfinished and we're still waiting for it in 2011?
I take your point...that the demos share substantial similarity to the final products...in fact you could almost say there are no demos. In the sense that a demo used to be a recording, then the final version was an entirely seperate and larger budget shot at the song. Whereas these songs are more like a recording session on protools opened thousands of times and parts added and swapped over and over.
That is the majority of the vocal part used in the 2008 version IS the vocal take from the 1999 version. There's changes...but it's not a demo as in it was completely re-recorded...it's more like they took that demo and built on it.
So it's clear the basis of the songs was there from 1999-2002.
That said though...I do actually think that it was the addition of Ron's parts that caused Axl to click over into "finished" in his mind. Yes the basis of the songs was there already, but in 6 years or something they'd been tinkering with them and always seemed to feel they wern't finished...then he added Ron's overdubs and I guess that was the icing on the cake for them.
I'm not trying to say Ron's better than bucket or anything by that. They're both amazing. Just that if you think about Axl's whole process with this it seems to have been to get everyone to add their own spin to the song. So he'll take part of someone's approach, part of someone elses, and then compile them into his own vision.
If you read what bumble and otjhers said about how it was done. It sounds like they go in a and just record every idea they have for a song over the track. Like dozens and hundreds of takes. Axl then chooses the elements he likes...and in some cases snips parts together from multiple takes (as in the original catcher) or snips together parts of multiple players to make one cohesive rhythm part (listen to the isloated guitar parts in Scrapped and it's clearly constructed from entirely different amp racks/sessions and I suspect multiple players too).
It reminds me a little of how Quenten Tarintino makes movies - he has a very clear style of his own - but it's influenced by thousands of ideas that came from other people that he's borrowed.
So it's like Richard or Robin or someone will come in and listen to IRS and record 30 versions of the rhythm part...at some stage they get bored make a flamenco version or something. Then Axl will take 2 seconds of that the outro to that version and cross fade it with Ron's metal version and Paul's soft acoustic version or something...scrapped in particualr seems to be made from a lot of things.
So there's varience in the structure of the songs - like better that jump around or are multiple songs ideas/riffs combined - but there's also variance in the complete songs - i'd be surprised if ANY guitar part on the album is from one take...almost all of them sound like they're cutting in and out from various sessions.
Even the bucket stuff on twat there was different versions of from memory. Like a shorter version isn't there.
So by 2006 he's got Paul's contributions, Richards, Robin's, Buckets and probably a host of other guitarists that were temporarily associated with the project...but he's still looking for that final piece to feel it's done...turned out Bumble was the guy who played that final piece of the puzzle. Which makes sense...bumble has quite a distinct style from the others...yet is also a jack of all trades type player who can do anything so it figures he might have the last piece of the puzzle.
If you think about Axl's choice of guitarists it makes a lot of sense when you consider he wants to build a track out of multiple guitar ideas. For example:
Paul: Brings inital song ideas and touches...but lacks the sophistication of a world class player to be the lone guitarist. More of a composer than a peformer - same reason I want to see a stephen spielberg film but don't want stephen to act in every roll himself.
Richard: Able to bring a flare to paul's parts because he is a consumate professional. He's a session player enough to be able to take instructions given to him and deliver a kickass version of a part. He's used to working with a varierty of styles and instruments to achieve the sound you want to dial up. He can make me a backing track that sounds like Ozzy or something that sounds spanish. Also adds fills and additional lead lines. Just kind of develops what alread exists from paul.
Robin: Very distinctive and particular approach to choice of notes and technique. Plays in the industrial style that Axl enjoys in bands like Nine Inch Nails..yet also with elements of the blusier style that made GNR famous (eg the better outro)...brings emotional and overrought feeling to the table (eg This I love). But perhaps lacks the overall chops to really fully replace slash..he writes cool stuff and some of it is amazing...but there's areas where you just kind of want more and there's nothing there..his technique only goes so far. But he's a great mix of a modern and traditional player.
Buckethead: Fills in any possible gap in Robin's technique. Has the shred abilities in spades that now you can push the parts, as Axl said, "That Step Farther". In addition he's got a few tricks of his own that suit the modernish styles of the songs - those signiture buckethead licks - the 8 finger atonal tap runs, the use of the cutoff switch as vibrato...the paul gilbert sweep runs. But apparently bucket is hard to work with for the band - who knows why - maybe he doesn't like them altering and blending his guitar ideas? Or maybe he just didn't work well with other's song structures as he's used to working from scratch with his own concepts? Maybe his advante guard style was just too far outside the box of Paul's writing style...I mean you don't want to add a tap run to every bridge of every song...who knows. But in the end bucket leaves.
Ron: Enter Ron. He's got the chops to be able to play bucket's lines, but he seems very easy going and into the process of working with existing guitar lines, sharing duties and the whole "ochestral concept" of blending the ideas of dozens of musicians. Look at how in catcher he plays a version of the solo - it's based on Axl's cut and paste of Brian May's warmup or whatever - then with his own style and tricks added in. So it's almost like that solo is co-written by Axl, Axl's editior, Ron and Brian. Yet it's also very ron too...it's got something of a lot of people in it. In addition he's got some skills and ideas of his own to add to the table - the fretless guitar - and his particualr approach to shred runs which sound quite distinctive. He also brings up a fresh approach and perspective to the tracks..and adds some slezey overdubs to adjust in subtle ways the feel of the tracks.
I see Ron as kind of the paint and polish that finished the process. His work covered up the gaps where things had been glued together and sort of adds cohesion to it all and pushed it to the final finished stage.
So yeah, the songs existed for a long time, but I think everyone who played on them pushed them that little bit closer towards their eventual journey. It's really quite a facinating and unusual way to make an album and band.
Don't you wonder what motivates a creative person like Tommy to continue with Guns?
Well I can't speak for tommy...but I know for me it would be a way to have the best of both worlds. Every so often they go on tour and play huge festivals and massive crowds which must be an incredible buzz and amazing. But then there's also the years off - giving time to be with the family and not always be on the road and away from home (or not having a home) the way it would be if you were constantly touring like bands like Bon Jovi or U2.
Meanwhile he gets the pay and security of being in a major band like GNR, but he's also aloud creative freedom to do whatever the fuck obscure side project he might like to do without any conflicts of interest or questions asked.
I see it as a good blend...you get the perks of touring and fame enough that you wouldn't get bored in a "normal life" but not so much that it's overwhelming and destroys your life. Some people (like slash) seem to enjoy endless tour and travel and a new bus or plane every night...but I'd get over it...this way he gets the shows and the fun side of it without the lifestyle drawbacks of endless work.
Also he gets to play with top notch musos like Ron, Bucket, Axl...What's not to like!
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
Mikkamakka wrote:Don't you wonder what motivates a creative person like Tommy to continue with Guns? They very likely haven't written any new material since 2003. It's been 8 years. You'd want more than rerecord stuff alone, wait for others to rerecord stuff or tour almost the same setlist in every 4 years. I know he's doing SA, he's doing his solo thing, but there's nothing to exceed his creativity in GN'R. He's not Pitman who seems to be the closest person to Axl in the tinkering game. Dizzy has never had any ambition, same goes for Frank. Even the lazy Richard had enough and got side projects to tour (or to get some more money). I really don't understand why these guys like Tommy and Ron stick with Axl, except the fat cheque.
tommy was never a hugely creative force in the replacements, westerberg was the song writer. it's only since GnR that tommy has really branched out into his solo work.
it's p obv it's the fat cheque & the interest garnered from being under the GnR umbrella that has these guy's hanging on.
tommy really didn't get very much money from the replacements days at all, so gnr in a way is the industry paying back to tommy what it owes as the 'mats were one of those incredibly influential bands with the sales figures of a tito jackson, like the velvet underground except miles better. or like big star.
from what he has said about the project, tommy did pour a good bit of effort into it. of course not that you can really hear it in the end result..
Most Replacements fans think Tommy's first band Bash and Pop's album from '93 was his best post Mats stuff..Perfect had some great songs as well...97-98. However, point made, Tommy seems to be hitting his stride over the last 7 years..VGH forward.
In the end, Tommy has a lot of great songs to his credit over the last 20 years....more than Axl actually.:peace:
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
We all know these guys do this job for the exposure and the check.
That's not even up to debate. They never do ANYTHING original or artistic, and they constantly get shit on for not being the real Guns N' Roses.
They certaintly don't do it because Beta makes a mean Brazilian barbeque.
I mean come on. These guys lost credibility YEARS ago.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Alternate artwork (NEW scans inside!)
They certaintly don't do it because Beta makes a mean Brazilian barbeque.
I dunno...man not to nit pick...but it's not a bad gig aside from the cash.
Sure there's the lack of respect from fans...but who cares...if you think about it as a muso....every so often...they get to travel the world, play massive shows, get to play with top notch dudes in the band....and have Axl sing the lead vocal line at the gig....not to mention that everyone says he's generous and funny behind the scenes....doesn't sound like a bad life to me...i'd prob do it for free hahah.
