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#1 Re: Guns N' Roses » How hard is it to leak a song? » 782 weeks ago
Downloading isn't even close to the success of a physical album.You're just going on about a way of distribution that's been tried and isn't even close to the sells of actual CD's, but anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Your proposal is just your idea. It is not fact. There's nothing to argue about. 

Digital music sales will surpass CD sales by 2012. Maybe CD2 will be ready by then and they can strike and exclusive in-store only at Radio Shack.
And as many people knew about Chinese Democracy as they do about the Prince Black Album or Dr. Dre's Detox. These are albums the press and fans obsess about. Not the average music buying public.
There were lengthy feature articles printed in Rolling Stone, GQ magazine and the New York Times. The average music buying public was absolutely aware and intrigued.
They could have had a bigger hit record in 2002 during the VMA and Buckethead build up. They didn't. They waited 6 years and until Buckethead left to release it. With no help from the band and record company. This is what you get. 

I don't know about that. Buckethead was drifting away and Axl just looked silly. The whole thing seemed awkward. I would have said 2006 for release. But yeah, timing is crucial.
#2 Re: Guns N' Roses » How hard is it to leak a song? » 782 weeks ago
What are we arguing here exactly?
We're arguing about the means of distribution.
I say the focus should be online, embracing new business models, creating new experiences and building interaction. I proposed a subscription based model of content distribution.
Others say "Downloads are KILLING the entire concept of "albums", "there's NOTHING exciting about downloading a song or an album" and "There is nothing exciting about the way Radiohead or NIN or Smashing Pumpkins or anyone else is doing in term as of how they're making their albums available online."
#3 Re: Guns N' Roses » How hard is it to leak a song? » 782 weeks ago
Yeah, vinyl went from not being made at all to being brought back.
I didn't skip anything. You spouted out your assumptions about albums and the mind of the music buying public and that's what I was answering. You're saying albums are dead (dying), there's no use in releasing music in a physical product, and I'm stating the fact that people are still buying albums, so GNR would be seriously hurting themselves when they just sold over 3 million copies of an album in one year. The bands you mentioned that released music the way you thought they should had big album sales with their last albums despite releasing music over the net. It has in no way proved that it will be more successful, or that it will kill the physical album. There has been no reason to stop making albums. Bands have actually been releasing music over iTunes for the last couple years and its proved absoloutely nothing.
If anything, if record companies lowered their prices, like they should have done a long time ago, it would help record sales a lot.
And comparing CD sales with any other GNR album doesn't mean dick. Only guys with a hard on for CD to be a failure care about it being the bands lowest selling album. You have to compare it to albums that sold at the height of their fame, in that small 4 year window, 20 years ago, that were heavily promoted, and even as you pointed out, in a different climate than today, to say its a failure. But you seem to be the one skipping that fact, even though, as you stated yourself, this is a different climate. Not just in the music business but what mainstream music is today.
Seriously hurting themselves?
Chinese Democracy had over 3 million plays on their Myspace page with no option to purchase online. An average of 25 people per second. How many lost digital downloads was that? Think about that.
How many thousands upon thousands of phyiscal copies of Chinese Democracy are sitting in a Best Buy warehouse. Nobody wants them. They can't get rid of them.
At least I offer an alternative, you just burry your head in the sand and go on about vinyl nostalgia.
And Chinese Democracy had years and years of build up, the kind of press and media coverage most bands would kill for. Who on earth didn't know about CD's release? Everyone and their mother knew when it came out.
#4 Re: Guns N' Roses » How hard is it to leak a song? » 782 weeks ago
You're theory is based on your assumptions that you're spouting out as fact. iTunes has taken a large chunk out of the record industry. The thing you're ignoring is that people are still buying albums. People will continue buying albums. Not only that, people are buying vinyl again. They may not sell like it once did, but albums will always sell.
Vinyl has jumped from a meager .2% of US music sales to a meager .4%. Wake me up when it goes over 1%.
-And Chinese Democracy is the lowest selling GN'R album.
Yeah, and that means dick.
It means a lot, actually.
The rest I addressed in previous posts, which you conveniently skipped. No one said albums don't sell. I said the medium is dying and doesn't sell and requires new ways of thinking.
#5 Re: Guns N' Roses » How hard is it to leak a song? » 782 weeks ago
I think it's you TOTAL LOSS who dosn't get it. Just cause itunes is winning and just because a new generation with zero attention span does something doesn't make it better. Kids growing up today will NEVER experience the thrill of buying a new album the way we did or even the way our parents did. People today don't appreciate albums the way they once did and that's a fact. Talk all you want about it being an evolution and a natural progression or whatever about how people want their music but the fact is the concept of an album is becoming a lost art for numerous reasons, digital downloading being one of them. I don't know how old you are but you obviously don't have a passion for albums as a piece of art. Cassestes were also "plastic junk" as were 8 tracks and vinyl yet there was something special about owning albums on those formats. There is nothing special about owning a download. U2 released their latest album on four different formats. Digital, Vinyl, CD and delux box set. I own 3 of the 4 formats. Guess which one I don't own. Not everyone wants their music as a download. I still enjoy going to a persons house and seeing a cd collection on display. I scroll through it every time. yet there's nothin interesting about someone's itunes playlist.
As a music fan I would think you'd have more appreciation for a physical album.
You are the minority.
What's killing music is a fixed, unchangeable point of view. You can't do todays job with yesterdays tools or concepts, something the music moguls don't understand. If it were up to them we'd still be flying around in hot air balloons.
No one is taking away your concept of what an album should be. It's all storytelling unified by a theme. Digital distribution doesn't change that, not one bit. Do you ever watch episodic tv? Same thing.
Technological transitions will always cause despair and anxiety between generations. The young instinctively understand it, but are persistently attacked by previous generations. Again, it's all about the experience. What's right for you may not be right for somebody else. People want to customize their experience, remix and reassemble their music so its right for them. Nothing wrong with that.
You can still have something tangible, limited editions for collectors. Playing a vinyl record is a ritual. Striking a match is different than flicking a lighter.
I love music and even collect the odd vinyl myself, my favourite being an old Danzig/Misfits 7" "Who Killed Marilyn" on purple wax. Paid $250 originally, now they go for about $400-500.
#6 Re: Guns N' Roses » How hard is it to leak a song? » 782 weeks ago
TOTAL LOSS wrote:Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Whoa dude, yeah like that's what I was sayting man.
Have a sense of humor, it's not a personal attack.:cool:
(and I'd like to nominate you to the head of Guns N' Roses marketing committee. Based on their efforts I'm sure they'd find your views instantly agreeable.)
Bono wrote:TOTAL LOSS wrote:It's about experiences. It's about the total experience a customer has with your product. And going to Best Buy to purchase music is a crappy experience. Previous generations have been conditioned by the constraints of physical mediums, but an album is whatever you want it be and people rip and mix their own track order straight to their ipod.
We consume music differently now and the Industry still hasn't responded. There is a reason the Pumpkins, Radiohead, NIN et all are using new business models. They have a user friendly character that reinforces interactive relationships. Rear view mirror thinking won't work.
You have less control now over your work and how it is used.
And Chinese Democracy is the lowest selling GN'R album.
That's YOUR opinion. Physically walking into a store and buying a physical copy of an album you've been anticipating is one the most fun things to do in my mind. There's NOTHING exciting about downloading a song or an album. You talk about the "total experience" and yet you say bands should forgo the process of releasing a physical copy of their albums? No way. It has nothing to do with previous generations being preconditioned to anything but rather the new generation being preconditioned to not appreciate the art of things. There is nothing exciting about the way Radiohead or NIN or Smashing Pumpkins or anyone else is doing in term as of how they're making their albums available online. It may be new but it's definately not exciting. Downloads are boring in MY opinion and I think rather than coming up with ways to encourage downloading albums as the norm more bands should come up with more incentive for people to buy physical copies. That's my opinion. I still buy cd's and collect vinyl. In my honest opinion the ability to purchase single songs for $0.99 off itunes or simply click a button and have the albums is ruining the art of the album.
Completely agree. Downloads are KILLING the entire concept of "albums". Most people just don't sit down and listen to an album from start to finish anymore. It's all about coming up with one catchy song, and that's all that really matters. Maybe the hardcore fans still listen to an entire Britney or Avril record but the masses just know the radio songs. True ROCK fans know the experience of listening to "Back In Black", "Master of Puppets", or "Appetite For Destruction". People just aren't programmed that way these days, and it sucks.
You don't get it.
You can only negotiate an evolving image rather than manage a stable one. This is true of music too. People want to enjoy music the way they want to, not the way you or the creator dictate they should. It's not bad or good, it just is what it is.
Besides, CD's are just plastic junk that create one giant landfill crisis. They are also the absolute WORST aesthetic format for displaying art and design, as any designer will tell you. The awkward cropping of imagery. The crappy plastic jewel case that always breaks. And lyrics in 6pt. type? Really??
Axl should take a few pointers from Trent. Fan remixes, HD footage downloads, interactive campaigns. Things change. People expect your product or service to be better designed. If you don't, someone else will make it better and you leave yourself exposed to the risks posed by the changing aspects of consumption, technology and competition.
iTunes is winning, anyway.
#7 Re: Guns N' Roses » How hard is it to leak a song? » 782 weeks ago
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
#8 Re: Guns N' Roses » How hard is it to leak a song? » 782 weeks ago
Smashing Pumpkins are releasing music that way from now on. And I don't think it will work. Not to mention, albums are pieces of art. Down to the literal artwork. Something would be lost if you released a song at a time.
And people are still buying albums. CD sold over 500,000 copies in the US, over 3 million around the world. That's not a bomb. You'd be hurting yourself if you decided to skip the album process.
It's about experiences. It's about the total experience a customer has with your product. And going to Best Buy to purchase music is a crappy experience. Previous generations have been conditioned by the constraints of physical mediums, but an album is whatever you want it be and people rip and mix their own track order straight to their ipod.
We consume music differently now and the Industry still hasn't responded. There is a reason the Pumpkins, Radiohead, NIN et all are using new business models. They have a user friendly character that reinforces interactive relationships. Rear view mirror thinking won't work.
You have less control now over your work and how it is used.
And Chinese Democracy is the lowest selling GN'R album.
#9 Re: Guns N' Roses » How hard is it to leak a song? » 782 weeks ago
faldor wrote:I could honestly care less about a 7th version of TWAT. And I'd rather hear new music the next time the way it was intended.
Yeah people always talk about how it was the leaks that sustained the fan base through the wait and whatever else. And I feel there's an element of truth to it, but then I also feel, those leaks are the reason some people wern't that excited about the album.
Because everyone gets into the "I like the 99 TWAT better, or the old Catcher, or version 3.5 of IRS", when if we'd never heard a song from CD, it would have been like 1000 times more intense hearing that album for the first time.
They shouldn't have released a physical album at all. People no longer listen to CD's.
The most exciting thing to happen were the leaks.
It was like Christmas morning when your eight years old every time a leak happened. The element of surprise created a frenzy of anticipation. Had they been smart they could have benefited from that situation by emulating it with a subscription based model.
Make a new song available on iTunes every week and on their website for subscribers for a nominal monthly fee + exclusive bonus content.
One track. Every week.
Instead of only one album review we'd get weekly reviews. Keep the momentum going, keep people talking, keep the blogers blogging, keep everyone expecting.
Tour and add new songs to the live act as they become available. This keeps the live shows fresh.
With 2-3 albums recorded they have enough content with breaks in between.
Their next CD will bomb as big as this one if the don't try something different.
What worked a decade ago no longer does.
#10 Re: Guns N' Roses » How hard is it to leak a song? » 782 weeks ago
jorge76 wrote:I don't "know" by any means.
But I think the main difference is that most leaks are from albums that are about to come out. Finished, discs pressed, just sitting on a shelf waiting to come out. The GNR leaks were of songs still being worked on, which is much more rare.
That's my impression as wel...
Imagine you're a famous painter and you're working on a new piece of art and someone breaks into your house, takes a picture/copy of your unfinnished work and spreads it to the world saying "Hey guys, look! It's the new painting he's been working on for 15 years!!"
If you're the artist, you would most likely be upset and go: "WTF!? It's not even done yet, and the picture/copy is of crappy quality.... Who the fuck did this to my precious!!?? Where's my legalteam?!"
It seems to be a different story when the art is 100% done, pressed and ready to be shipped around the world....
Early sketches and rough drafts contain an energy, sponteniety and integrity almost always lost in the final product.
Ask any illustrator and they will tell you that you can never re-crerate that initial thumbnail in the final version. It's just the organic quality of that gesture or stroke you can't duplicate. Same thing with any musical instrument. Thats really half of CD's problem right there, isn't it?
When I was in art school I would always walk around and survey the works in progress- paintings, sculpture, architectural models, whatever. Quite a few artists work openly, and the creative performance is as much a part of the process as the final composition. Sometimes even more so. Not everything has to be shrouded in secrecy.
In fact, I almost always listen to GN'R, Nirvana and Alice in Chains demos and live performances over the album versions. Those musical sketches are glory to my ears.
But then I like real cream cheese as opposed to processed cheese.
So, yeah, bring on the work in progress, please.
